Trying to trace grandfather

Hi,

I thought I'd re-post a topic I created a couple of years ago, and augment it with some information I have learned since then:
"My name is Eric Jones and I am trying to retrace my father's origins. Up until this year I had no knowledge as to my British relatives, have now found one cousin in Ireland.
My dad was born in Wigan, 7 December 1931, his mother was Edna Jones, residence at the time was 1 Northumberland Street.
No father mentioned on the birth certificate, Edna had siblings, one of which is mentioned on the certificate, Frances Doherty, born Jones and daughter of John Thomas, a collier.
According to the cousin Edna never married but lived together with some guy in the 50s or 60s, (quite modern for the times). My dad's father was never mentioned other than that he was killed during Operation Market Garden in 1944. According to one parish record Eric Jones was baptised in 1932 being the child of Edna and Charles Jones, also a collier. She herself was a cotton operative spinner.
I am just about to get my dad's Army records released but I was wondering if there was anyone still alive who might have heard about Edna, her relatives, her son Eric or whatever."
Now, I have recently submitted a DNA test to Ancestry and have also uploaded the results to MyHeritage. The results were quite staggering because they show a high percentage of Irish origin, and not Welsh. As my father told me my middle name was after my grandfather (who supposedly died at Arnhem), his name should be John. Seeing as the Jones' family were in close contact with the Doherties, I am assuming the buck stops here - there is a John Doherty in their ranks, born around 1904.
However, the only living relative who knows more is keeping to herself, and the cousin in question also sort of broke off contact. There is something there and 70-odd years on I can only guess. I am aware of the Ancestry TV programme who would love to broadcast a story like this, but I'd rather not resort to the media.

this is from the 1939 register There's an Edna Jones dob 4 Mar 1911 who was single Domestic Servant living in the Elms Club, Wigan Lane. At the same address there's a George W Jones dob 1 Aug 1902 who was a married Insurance official. Edna was no 27 in that property

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/photo.php?opt=5&id=20050&gallery=Wigan+Lane&offset=40

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Link

Thanks for your help so far , the 1939 register? How do you access that?
I know very little about my father's childhood, not even which school he attended etcetera..
I am not sure this Edna is the same one but I kept the photo just in case..

Winnie has probably got the right Edna as she was one month old on the 1911 census.
From the records it seems Edna had three siblings who survived infancy.
Ada who married Albert Bentham
Frances who married Patrick Doherty
and John

The 1939 register shows parents John Thomas and Elizabeth Alice Jones at 1,Northumberland Street together with one other person described as'closed ' indicating someone born after 1915.

Could this be your father as Edna was elsewhere?Maybe Winnie can check if she is able to unlock this household.

Wigan cemetery records show John Thomas,Elizabeth Alice ,Edna and Ada's son buried in same grave.

Bentham
Bentham Derek 8 mo 1 Blackthorn Ave. 28-Feb 1941 S 981 C of E
Jones
Jones Elizabeth Alice 59 yrs 1 Northumberland St. 05-Jan 1940 S 981 C of E
Jones John Thomas 72 Yrs N'thumberland St 06-Feb 1950 S 981 C of E
Jones Edna 73 yrs Billinge Hospital 06-Sep 1985 S 981 C of E

Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Religion
Barnes
Barnes David Alan 3 mo 65 Battersby St. Higher Ince 31-Jul 1967 Infant 14-310 C of E
Bentham
Bentham Albert 23 yrs 1 Blackthorne Ave. 11-Jun 1951 Datalller 14-310 C of E
Bentham Ada 72 yrs Wigan Infirmary 10-Jul 1974 Married
2, Honeysuckle Ave. Beech Hill 14-310 C of E
Bentham Albert 79 yrs Wigan Infirmary 04-Jan 1979 Retired
2, Honeysuckle Ave. Beech Hill 14-310 C of E

Baptism: 16 Apr 1911 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Edna Jones - [Child] of John Thomas Jones & Elizabeth
Born: 4 Mar 1911
Abode: 10 Morris Row
Occupation: Collier

Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Religion
Doherty
Doherty Patrick 66 yrs Wrightington Hospital 06-Feb 1970 Retired Miner
12, Greenwood Ave. Pemb. 10-258 R C
Doherty Frances 81 yrs Wigan Infirmary 11-Jun 1990 6, Caunce St. Wigan 10-258 R C
Doherty Patrick blank Billinge Hospital 03-Aug 1990 (Crem Rems.) - still born
9, Gordon St. Scholes 10-258 R C
Doherty Kevin 55 yrs Wigan Infirmary 06-Sep 2004 6, Caunce Rd. Scholes 10-258 R C

Baptism: 31 Oct 1920 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Albert Jones - [Child] of John Jones & Elizabeth
Born: 23 Sep 1920
Abode: 1 Northumberland Street
Occupation: Collier

Baptism: 27 May 1914 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Laura Jones - [Child] of John Thomas Jones & Elizabeth
Born: 7 Mar 1914
Abode: 1 Northumberland St., Whelley
Occupation: Collier

Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Cremation Religion
Jones
Jones Laura 3 yrs Northumberland St. 24-Mar 1917 M 14 * C of E

Baptism: 30 Oct 1918 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Doris Jones - [Child] of John Jones & Elizabeth Alice
Born: 16 Oct 1918
Abode: 1 Northumberland Street, Wigan
Occupation: Collier

Jones Doris 8 mo 1 Northumberland St. 21-Jun 1919 M 115 *

Baptism: 31 Oct 1920 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Albert Jones - [Child] of John Jones & Elizabeth
Born: 23 Sep 1920
Abode: 1 Northumberland Street
Occupation: Collier

Jones Albert 2 yrs 1 Northumberland St. Whelley 20-Jan 1923 M 225 * C of E

Baptism: 9 Dec 1903 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jones - [Child] of John Thomas Jones & Elizabeth
Born: 23 Nov 1903
Abode: 4 Kendrick St.
Occupation: Collier

Jones Ellen 2¼ yrs 4 Kendrick Street 21-Feb 1906 F 431 * C of E

i found your family tree on ancestry and seen the info you have i think your dad was brought up with his grandparents and it will be him on the 1939 register with his grandparents

Hi all,
If there is any truth in Charles Jones being the father of Eric, I may have made an interesting discovery. Winnie says that there was a George W. Jones living at the same address as Edna in 1939, born abt. 1902. There was no George W. Jones born in Wigan that year, but there was a George White Jones born in 1900 and the 1911 census shows that he had an older brother called CHARLES JONES (mother's maiden name was Graham). I looked at Eric's birth certificate and it doesn't look like Edna was married to Charles, but he is listed in the parish register of St Catharine's. I am off out now and don't have time to investigate this further, but it might be another lead.

Linda

A first glance suggests this Charles may have died in 1937 aged 43.

This Charles is buried with his mother and father and a daughter from his marriage (1917)to Jennie Capell.

The Charles above was married to a Jennie Capell and that would, of course, have been a reason not to be able to marry Edna. I don't know when people started noting the father's name on birth certificates when the parents weren't married. It probably wasn't usual in 1932. Anyway, I've been reading through the above and am bothered about George W.'s date of birth in the 1939 register. It doesn't match George White Jones's, but it also doesn't match the birth dates of two George Joneses (if that's the plural of Jones!) who were born in 1902 in Wigan. Winnie, can you look again? Does it say in 1939 whether that George W. Jones was born in Wigan??

Anyway, the Charles I mentioned certainly didn't die in Arnhem in Operation Market Garden. I did find one who did, but he would only have been 14 at the time of Eric's birth. But perhaps the story was a myth told to Eric to explain why he had no father???

Linda

Mygriffiths,
Mails crossed once more! I know about Jenny Capell and the three children born up to 1928, but none after that although Jennie was only 31. I couldn't find Jennie's death, but a Jane Jones died in Corporation Street in 1951 aged 59. Age would be slightly out. I don't know. I just thought that if a Charles Jones really were the father of Eric as stated in the parish registers, one reason for not marrying Edna would be that he couldn't. I think it was practically impossible to get a divorce in those days if one spouse blocked it, and there was, of course, a huge social stigma attached. I'm still thinking!!

Linda

Sorry the 1939 register does not give we're they were born

George was only living in the same building as Edna not with her

I think Jennie married George Banks in 1938 .He is buried in Gidlow cemetery with a John Capell both of 44 Corporation Street.George and Jennie Banks are listed at this address in 1939.

You'll be right, mygriffiths, Jennie will have remarried. 44 Corporation Street was the address in the cemetery records for Charles Jones. So it looks like this Charles Jones is a red herring. But it does seem strange that the name Charles Jones was in the parish registers if it wasn't true. The vicars and parish priests knew their parishioners in those days and used to come regularly to their homes. I'm looking into other possibilities for Charles Jones.

Winnie, thanks for looking again. I didn't think George was living with Edna, but I thought there might have been a link to Charles through him. I know George White Jones was married to an Elizabeth Cartwright. Can you find them in 1939 so that he can be ruled out completely? Thanks.

Linda

hi Linda give me some dates of birth and i will see what i can find

I have seen examples of baptisms where the unmarried mother's maiden name is applied to the father so Charles may not be a Jones.

The last idea also crossed my mind. Perhaps his first name was Charles. It also occurred to me that his surname could have been Charles and I looked at the 1911 census. There are two brothers Joseph (b. 1893) and Robert (b. 1889) Charles in Lime Street, Scholes. Joseph is a coal hewer. There was a also a coal miner in Wallgate called Willie Charles, b abt. 1890. I haven't yet checked any of these to see what happened to them.

"Unstressedric" says his middle name refers to his father's father and should be John. But was Eric raised by his own grandparents and did he call his grandfather "dad"? If this was the case (and it wasn't so unusual) was he referring to John Thomas Jones when he spoke of unstressederic's grandfather?

More later (daughter has just arrived with baby!!).

Linda

PS I noticed that the birth certificate of Eric on ancestry was a copy from 2005. Did he perhaps not know that Edna was his mother? Did he not have an original birth certificate?

Baptism: 24 Jan 1932 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Eric Jones - [Child] of Charles Jones & Edna
Born: 7 Dec 1931
Abode: 1 Northumberland Street
Occupation: Mine

Mygriffiths,
There are lots of people named Charles Jones around Wigan at the relevant time. I wrote down the ones in Hindley and Wigan as possible candidates, although others can't really be ruled out. It resulted in this:

Jones, Charles (Aspey) 1885 Hindley
" " (Kelly) 1886 Wigan
" " (McKie) 1892 Wigan
" " (Jones) 1893 Wigan
" " (Arkwright) 1896 Wigan
" " (Brown) 1900 Wigan

" Charles Thomas (Wood) 1897 Wigan
" Charles Leslie (Shaw) 1906 Hindley
" Thomas Charles (Roberts) 1907 Hindley

It would be great if you could find the time to look at some of these. I haven't a lot of time at the moment with non-stop visitors until after Easter. Reading the first message again, it seems that "unstressederic" would have expected to have a lot of Welsh blood because of the name Jones and was surprised to have so much Irish blood. Reading between the lines, he seems to think that this may have to do with the Doherty family. In the above list is the Irish name KELLY and so I'm going to try and find out more about the Charles Jones with a mother called Kelly if I can.

Linda

Ooops! Have just seen that it was Winnie who wanted the above list. Sorry! Didn't want to load work on you, mygriffiths.

For all those who are interested in family history Ancestry has a free weekend this weekend April 14th to 17th.
pass it on

Hello, I was very surprised and pleased with all the feedback. As Linda correctly pointed out, I did not expect Irish ancestry. However, after the DNA test I have found matches in the USA that have both Dutch and Irish origins, amongst those I remember seeing a Kelly but I need to check up on that.
As for my dad, he always mentioned growing up with his grandfather. He liked to mess about with the wireless to which grandmother would tell him to stop 'fiddling and farting about'.
The Charles in my Ancestry tree was an uncertainty, because I only have the online parish record to go on. Someone on Ancestry pointed out that the guy may well have had a different surname but they basically pretended him to be Jones.
However, my dad was not a religious man, and I remember my father recounting the cool if not hostile reception the vicar received when grandfather John Thomas had passed.
My dad was born December 7, 1931, by the way, so yes, after 1915. I really appreciate you guys helping me out. I know virtually nothing about these people, only ever saw my grandmother once, I was 3, also met some other people round that time but I haven't a clue who they were. I was with my parents and my father most likely went round family to introduce my (Dutch) mother. I was on one occasion left at a house with a couple of kids minding me - I quickly found a trainset under the bed which apparently was their dad's. Most likely relatives, maybe brothers or sisters but I really don't know.
My only source is the internet, as I live and work in Holland. It's been puzzling for decades...

Another update, Ancestry points out that the Irish portion of my dna originates from county Connaught in Ireland. Very likely lots of people left for America and mainland Britain during the famine, that would explain the dna 4th to 5th generation matches I incur with several Americans.
By the way, my dad was so convinced his father died at Arnhem, he actually applied to the filmcrew of 'A Bridge too Far' as an extra - but they turned him down. According to his account, my grandfather was a paratrooper who came across in one of those gliders and was killed parashooting down.

unstressederic - when you do the DNA what do you actually get back from them. I know that you are told some information about your heritage but do you actually get any information about relatives or anything? Just wondered if it was worth doing? Are you glad that you did?

lesley I did my DNA through Ancestry. you get a breakdown of your genetic heritage e', I.m 53% Irish etc. You get lots of links to maps and charts explaining this . You will get all your DNA matches starting from the closest down to links that may go back about 8 generations. You can click on a name on your list and it will tell tou what Surnames are on their tree which helps to find a link. You have the option of contacting any person. Some trees are open to a look and some are locked. Some people have come up as a match but have no tree at all. I have contactsnow with distant cousins in America, Canada and Australia . My sons gave me my kit as a birthday present and I thought it was a great gift.

My apologies for butting in but...kathpressey,I read the other day
somewhere that you had an auntie that worked at Helen Rowes in
Wallgate....was her name Jean.

No her name was Kathleen Winstanley. She worked there for many years. I was only young so I don't know any other machinists.

Sorry..I thought you meant worked in the shop in Wallgate,with Helen Rowe.

Lep 1950 re father's name on a birth certificate.My dad's birth cert shows both father and mother with different names.Dad and his siblings were also registered in their fathers name and this was in 1912.

Lesley, sorry for the late reply but I'm not on here very often. When you do the dna testing you get the results through the site. In my case I didn't get info on relatives but a lot matches in the US. It is still relatively new so the site itself is still modifying as much as they can. Didn't really get me much further than a suspicion as to the origins of my grandfather and the notion that the surname given to my dad would not have been his real surname.