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THE BLACK BULL

Started by: winnie (1281) 

i have got back in touch with her at last








DOES ANYONE KNOW OF THE BLACK BULL IN SCHOLES MY GREAT GRANDAD USED TO DRINK THERE IN THE 1930S ONWARDS ALSO CAROLINE ST ? WERE HE USED TO LIVE HIS NAME WAS MICHEAL MORAN

Started: 15th Sep 2006 at 18:39
Last edited by winnie: 13th Jan 2015 at 15:17:12

Posted by: patricia (112)

Winnie did any other relatives of yours come from Caroline St, my parents and grandparents come from there, also i come from Caroline St. there was a pub facing my house Ropemakers Arms, and the vine inn was there as well a little bit further up. The name Moran is familiar.

Replied: 15th Sep 2006 at 19:03
Last edited by patricia: 15th Sep 2006 at 19:11:36

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

My mother was born in the Black Bull. Her dad's name was James Bennett I don't know when they moved out? Probably late 1920's or early 30's? When he died.

Replied: 15th Sep 2006 at 21:02

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

the family lived at hardybutts 2 doors down fromthe blackbull pub

Replied: 18th Sep 2006 at 14:29

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

I'm afraid I cant ask any of my family who lived in the pub They are all dead now. I have one aunt who is still alive who was only a baby when her parents lived in the pub. I'll ask her if she can remember the name as she attended St. Pats school.

Replied: 18th Sep 2006 at 20:25

Posted by: dandiwink (3)

I remeber they used to sell ale/beer to people who called with a jug. Mrs Wilson in our street (Clarington Grove) used to take a big white milk jug and get her husband beer in it in the 1950's.

Replied: 7th Nov 2006 at 21:30

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

Just been to visit my aunt, she was 80 last weekend. She was born in the Black Bull but moved when she was 2 1/2 . She remembers the Moran family as she used to visit her aunt who lived near the pub. She said she used to play with Winnie Moran and can remember the other siblings, Francis, Teresa, James, ? Michael. One of her older sisters, Joan, went to St Pats school with girl members of the Moran family. She said Winnie would be about the same age as she is. i.e. 80.
Between the pub and the Moran house lived an old lady Mrs. Watmough.

Replied: 8th Nov 2006 at 17:09

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

this is my family my nanna was annie i have never been able to find out were in ireland micheal was born and the family are all dead micheal was married to margaret bennet is this any relation to your mum thanks

Replied: 16th Nov 2006 at 16:37

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

Margaret Bennettisn't one of my mother's sisters. I'll ask my aunt next time I see her. I am sure if she was a relation? she would have mentioned it last week.

Replied: 16th Nov 2006 at 17:21

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

thaks ron ithink winnie would of been about 90 now my nanna was younger and she would of been 86 yesterday other siblings were peggy and winnie(twins) theresa,annie,tom,mick,frances,dan,that all ican remember there was 13 of them altogether

Replied: 17th Nov 2006 at 18:32

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

anyone know of the moran family my nanna annie married tommy unsworth

Replied: 17th Feb 2009 at 20:03

Posted by: nippermoz (39)

andrew darcys father had it in the early 80s i remember going to andrews birthday party when i was 10

Replied: 18th Feb 2009 at 00:18

Posted by: .b.t. (195)

Hi Winnie

Is this the pub you are talking about?

Black Bull

Replied: 18th Feb 2009 at 13:49

Posted by: .b.t. (195)

Hi Winnie

Will these be of any help to you?

Taken from 'Lancashire BMD' Marriage Indexes

Thomas UNSWORTH married Annie MORAN in 1946 at Wigan Lancashire Ref:- ROW/13A/223

and this

Michael MORREN married Margaret Mary BENNETT in 1915 at Wigan Lancashire Ref:- ROW/135/70

Replied: 18th Feb 2009 at 15:02

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

thanks bt is that the spelling that you found MORREN ?

Replied: 19th Feb 2009 at 13:12

Posted by: .b.t. (195)

Hi Winnie

That is the spelling on Lancashire BMD and this is the link to the site.
Lancashire BMD

Replied: 19th Feb 2009 at 13:34
Last edited by .b.t.: 21st Feb 2009 at 13:22:08

Posted by: .b.t. (195)

Hi Winnie

Here are some more that might help you
Birth
Margaret Mary BENNETT 1897 Wigan Ref:- WIG/206/398

Birth
James Michael MORAN 1893 Wigan Ref:- WIG/191/53

And this one with an Irish name for the mother

John Michael MORAN 1893 Oldham Above Town Oldham Mothers Name KELLY Ref:- OAT/139/213

Replied: 19th Feb 2009 at 13:59
Last edited by .b.t.: 19th Feb 2009 at 14:00:10

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

thanks for for your help we know that micheal came over from ireland sligo we think never been ableto find any info we know the date of hs death and that s all

Replied: 21st Feb 2009 at 02:17

Posted by: patrician (8)

Hi Winnie - my mother was born and grew up in 134 Hardybutts. Moran's were her neighbours. My mother is 85 and she moved to Ireland in 1951. She has always talked a lot about friends and neighbours in Hardybutts - and i have made notes of a lot of her memories:

She knew Michael (Mick) Moran well and we have visited his grave in Gidlow when we visited my mother's family grave there.

Michael Moran came from Tullinaglug - it is a townland - in the countryside close to Tubbercurry in South County Sligo. There are no longer any relatives of the Moran family living there but the location of where they once lived is known locally.
Michael Moran first emigrated to Liverpool before moving to Wigan. My grandmother's first husband was a neighbour from Sligo. My grandmother's first husband moved to Wigan to work in the coalmines and he lived in lodgings with Mick Moran in Great Georges Street off Caroline Street. (The landlady was Mrs. McCoy).
Mick Moran married Margaret (Maggie) . He worked at Smithers Pit and was known as a very good worker in the mines.

Mick and Maggie Moran's family were: Danny, Peggy & Winne (twins), Tommy, Nancy, Jim, Michael John, Teresa and Mary (twins) and Frances.
Teresa's twin Mary died as a baby.
Mick Moran's mother came over from Sligo and stayed with the family in Hardybutts. Mick also had a brother, who lived in Wigan.

I will ask my mother if she has any further information.

Patricia.


Replied: 29th Mar 2009 at 18:38
Last edited by patrician: 29th Mar 2009 at 18:41:52

Posted by: patrician (8)

I have since spoken to my mother who remembered Annie Moran who she knew as Nancy.

Mick Moran's brother Patrick and was called "P". He went back and forth to Ireland and worked at harvesting in Lincolnshire but would visit Wigan on his way back to Ireland.

Tom Moran was another brother of Mick, who lived in Hardybutts near Griffin's across from the Black Bull. He was married to Mary Alice and he had sons Patrick and Charlie.
He had a heart condition and was out of work a lot.
Charlie used visit Sligo in later years.

The Moran family place in Tullinaglug was bought by a man called Tom Walsh who was from Tullinaglug but also knew the family in Wigan. He is no longer there.

Mick Moran's mother was Una (Irish for Winnie). She was remembered as being very good looking when she was young.
This grandmother visited Wigan a lot and sometimes brought some of the family back. Peggy came back to Ireland and went to school in Ireland for a while. Mrs. Moran later died in Ireland.

Some of the older people pronounced the named as "Murren".

All of the Moran boys were in WW2 and all came back without injuries. John worked in English Tools with my mother at one time.




In relation to The Black Bull - my mother remembered Janie Bennett who ran the Black Bull. She used play with some of the Bennett children and remembers Joan Bennett who used to stay with her grandmother Griffin in Hardybutts after the Bennett family had left the Black Bull.

Replied: 29th Mar 2009 at 19:29

Posted by: patrician (8)

My mother remembers a story that when Michael Moran married Margaret Bennett -- the fitst night he went down the pit after getting married he was in an accident and his leg was broken.
I checked out Coal Mining History Resource Centre
database of accidents and found this:
http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/database/cmhrc
action=fetch_by_id&record_id=108864

Mining Accidents - Michael Moran
Name: MORAN Michael (injured)
Age: 29
Date: 15/11/1915
Year: 1915
Occupation: Contractors man
Colliery: Garswood Hall
Owner: Garswood Hall Collieries Co Ltd
Town: Ashton-in-Makerfield
County: Lancashire
Notes: Fall of roof - fractured leg.

Replied: 29th Mar 2009 at 19:37
Last edited by patrician: 30th Mar 2009 at 21:10:15

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

Hi Patrician, Jannie Bennett was my grandmother. Joan was my Aunty, there was also, Teresa, Jimmy, Kathleen, Gladys(My mother) Joan, and Agnes. When James Bennett, her husband died, she remarried a Bill Martland and they lived in Greenough street, in the house between the Regent Pub and the doctors. There she had another son William. Agnes and William are the only ones still alive. Agnes is 81 and still going strong. I remember when I was young the name Mother Griffin 'll ask my Aunty Agnes what the connection was to the Bennett family.
What is your mother's name?

Replied: 29th Mar 2009 at 22:39

Posted by: terrymac28 (410) 

Was in there yesterday! and my mum was born in Caroline St in the 20's.nee Flanagan.

Replied: 30th Mar 2009 at 09:23

Posted by: ashfield (169)

My grandmother's family McFarlane and Heaton lived around Caroline St. An aunt Louie Heaton was housekeeper at St Joseph's at one time.

Replied: 30th Mar 2009 at 18:29

Posted by: patrician (8)

Hi Ron - My mother's name was Rose Gallagher. They lived three doors from the Black Bull at 134 Hardybutts.
Just before WW2 they moved to Scholes Crossing where her mother ran a shop.
They were 4 older children in her family whose surname was Henry: Tommy, Paddy, Teddy and Teresa. All now deceased
Then the Gallagher's were Molly, Winnie, Rose and the youngest was Peggy (Elizabeth). My mother is the only surviving one and she is now 85.
She says that Mother Griffin was Jannie Bennett's mother and she lived across the road from the Black Bull.
Her daughter Kitty Griffin lived with her. Kitty had red hair and was very pretty. She worked in the Empress Cotton Mill. Joan Bennett also lived there and went to St. Patricks School.


Patricia.

Replied: 30th Mar 2009 at 21:17
Last edited by patrician: 30th Mar 2009 at 21:26:25

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

thankyou so much for all your info i cant belive you what you know !!!!i cant wait to tell my mum .my mum is annie {moran} and tommy unsworths daughter anne .i never knew were he came from in ireland all the names match and all the info i am have problems with ancestary .com they have taken the money of me but i still cant get on it ... thanks again for all your info i am very very grateful xxxxx

Replied: 31st Mar 2009 at 10:11

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

i aant find any info on tullinaglug xx i have photo s of the moran family on here

Replied: 31st Mar 2009 at 15:49

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

its under album ,people ,moran family wedding

Replied: 31st Mar 2009 at 15:52

Posted by: jedan (106)

hi winnie.i remember the bluebell pub ,also the shovel and broom.my grandma used to live on warrington lane near the the little corner shop.round the corner was the royal george home.my grandmas name was also moran,(violet)i also had an auntie edna moran,and uncle john,who moved to worksop.they also had relatives in ireland.so did my mother mary moran.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 11:15

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

Hi Patricia just spoken to my Aunty Agnes (Bennett). She can remember your mother although she is a few years younger, she is 82. She said that Mother Griffin was no relation to the Bennett's. Jannie Bennett's ( My grandmother) mother's name was Kenyon and they lived on the corner of, either Roscoe Street or Hunt Street, going toward the Vulcan pub.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 13:50

Posted by: patrician (8)

Hi Wigan friends:

Karen/Winnie: My mother was delighted to have connected with a Moran descendent. She moved to Ireland in 1951 and still lives in Sligo - only about 5 miles from Tullinaglug. You would probably not find a lot of information on Tullinaglug as it is a townland - a division of land made up of small farms in a rural area.
It is in the parish of Tourlestrane. My sister lives close by and is going to check out if there is any local information on the Morans or if there is any trace of where their house once was. Parish records in relation to them would be in the parish of Tourlestrane.
We grew up in Sligo but heard so many stories of Wigan and Hardybutts that we felt we knew all those people.
The row of houses on Hardybutts from the Black Bull to Roscoe Street is now demolished.
When my mother was living there 1923 - 1938 the houses (now demolished) were as follows:

140 The Black Bull
138 Whatmore
136 Moran
134 Gallagher ([previusly Henry first marriage)
132 Weller
130 Kelly -Mrs Kelly remarried Aflington.
128 Lavin
126 Ward (previously Beasleys)
124 Humphries
122 Norbett
120 Cawleys



Ron: My mother remembers Jane staying with Mother Griffin. She may have stayed with her for a short time while the family were moving. She may not have been her grandmother but as a child my mother presumed that she was - the children in the area called her Mother Griffin or Grandmother Griffin.


Patricia.

Patricia.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 20:57

Posted by: danni (inactive)

I love reading memories like this. I understand work is ongoing to transcribe the parish records for St Catharines and St Pats, so hopefully it wont be too long before you can access marriage and baptism records for your families, if they were members of those churches.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 21:59

Posted by: patrician (8)

Winnie - just did a bit of googling and found this baptism list for Tourlestrane 1845 -1862 - there are a few Morans listed. .
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/sligo/churches/tourlestrane-bap.txt
contact me direct and I can forward you any other information rather than taking Wiganworld on a chase to Sligo.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 22:30
Last edited by patrician: 3rd Apr 2009 at 19:11:46

Posted by: wiganyankeeron (inactive)

Hi Patricia Have you got or seen a copy of the book, done a few years ago, about the History of St Pats? It is full of photographs I have looked and there are a lot of Morans on the photos.

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 22:45

Posted by: patrician (8)

- my mother has some St. Patricks publications sent to her by friends - must check it out.

Winnie - I just checked out Griffith Valuation for Sligo. This was land valuations carried out in 1858 and lists landholders and people who leased land. There is John Murrin, listed for Tullanaglug - note spelling - in the civil parish of Kilmacteigue, Sligo.
(Tourlestrane is half-parish of Kilmacteigue).
I think this must be Michael Moran's father. My mother said the older people from the area called him Michael Murrin which would also link with the record of marriage already checked out. I will keep you posted. Patricia.

Also check out Murrin family on this:
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.c/qx/murrin-coat-arms.htm

Replied: 1st Apr 2009 at 23:29
Last edited by patrician: 1st Apr 2009 at 23:36:54

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

thankyou so much patricia for all your help i will give you a email soon xx

Replied: 2nd Apr 2009 at 18:05

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

i have never heard from pat again i kept in touch for i while then nothing does anyone know her i have emailed a few times but no reply

Replied: 2nd Mar 2011 at 18:27

Posted by: billyshym (744) 

To Patrician

The Sherburns lived at 167 Hardybutts. Alf and Mary sons & daughters till the mid 50's

Replied: 3rd Mar 2011 at 11:00

Posted by: watchalot (972)

my dad used to drink in black bull in 50's landlord was tommy stockley and i used to stand out side with a bet and a mr fairclough used to come out and take it i think he was called a bookies runner

Replied: 6th Mar 2011 at 18:52
Last edited by watchalot: 6th Apr 2013 at 19:27:59

Posted by: bennett79 (7) 

wONDER IF THIS TIES INTO MY bENNETT FAMILY HISTORY at all some of the names do will have to look further into it.

Replied: 17th May 2011 at 10:40

Posted by: aussie94 (2346)

My auntie Doris and her family lived across the road from The Black Bull in Hardybutts, until the houses were knocked down, then they were transported to Marsh Green .

Replied: 21st May 2011 at 08:26

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

bump

Replied: 23rd Feb 2013 at 18:47

Posted by: pippa (118)

Don@t know if there's any connection, but Kath Moran runs the Silverwell on Darlington Street and her family are still around Whelley

Replied: 26th Feb 2013 at 12:49

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

please does anyone know how i could try an get back in touch with patricia

Replied: 16th Nov 2014 at 13:40

Posted by: winnie (1281) 

bump

Replied: 12th Jan 2015 at 19:00

Posted by: felly (15)

There was vince moran who lived at 155 hardybutts in the 40's & 50' s
I was born at 131 hardybutts in 1944
Vince emergrated to Australia in 1961

Replied: 15th Feb 2015 at 15:56
Last edited by felly: 16th Feb 2015 at 12:13:49

Posted by: Aus65 (9)

Hi Felly ;did you live close to Terry Mullen? I lived at the back of ST PATRICKS church and mated with Terry.I left Wigan for Australia in 65 but moved to New Zealand in 67 where I still live.

Replied: 1st Jan 2016 at 06:53

 

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