I totally agree

off Twitter

Why should farmers suffer another tax to raise a paltry £500 million, when asylum accommodation costs many times more? In the four months since the general election, the number of migrant hotels in use has jumped from 213 to 220. That means taxpayers are continuing to support over 30,000 asylum seekers in hotels, at a cost of £4.2 billion a year.

LINK

stop ruining such a serious thread

I'm no expert on this matter but from what I can dechiper I don't think it will affect the genuine, small, local / market farmers too much.
I think its targeted to the wealthy land owners who buy farms for the land as an investment rather than for the use of a 100% fully functional farm.

Made me Larf TTS...how did they earn a living with such c**p songs...

Now the EU gravy train has finished for farmers....pay up.

Jeremy Clarkson is a prime example of a wealthy tax avoider. .
He openly admitted that he bought one to avoid paying inheritance tax.

Quoted as saying
"I have bought a farm. There are many sensible reasons for this: Land is a better investment than any bank can offer. The government doesn’t get any of my money when I die"

Now he's up in arms and banging the war drums because the Labour government have caught up with the wealthy, greedy chancers.

Well done Labour.
Its the genuine working class farmers I feel sorry for. Although it will not affect them, unless they are super wealthy and their land is worth more than £1 million pounds. And if it is, they deserve to pay it.

I would like to know what the situation would be re. Inheritance Tax IF the owner dies and the value of his farm is say £5 million His heir will have to pay Inheritance Tax. What if that heir dies 6 months later. Does his heir have to pay Inheritance tax again?

The small farmers don’t earn enough to accumulate sufficient funds to pay inheritance tax, they will have to sell some of their land to pay the tax. The value of the farm equipment is included in the inheritance tax calculation. A small farmer with a modest sized farm can easily run up a valuation of over £ 1 million but have insufficient funds to pay the tax.
The owners of large swathes of farm hold it in trust so it’s free of inheritance tax.
Jeremy Clarkson has placed his farm in trust. If he lives for 7more years it will be free of inherItance tax.

"The owners of large swathes of farm hold it in trust so it’s free of inheritance tax.
Jeremy Clarkson has placed his farm in trust. If he lives for 7more years it will be free of inherItance tax."

Brilliantly explained, Gaffer.
Clarkson ( amongst others ) I suspect have done the same and are trying to crawl through a very narrow loophole to avoid paying tax and therefore depriving the UK economy of much needed income ?

The way businesses and industries which include farming are being attacked by the new Labour government, it will not just be the farmers who will need loopholes to protect their standard of living.

Prepare yourself for increases in prices, job losses, increased hardship etc as those in business and industry always retaliate by hitting the public if their profit margins are hit by increased taxation by government!

p.s. The worse is yet to come!

It has nothing to do with protecting their standard of living or indeed food production. They are protesting about having to pay inheritance tax like other people have to do!

I thought you would have known that!

CC

Very few people and estates pay inheritance tax. Many of the ones who do are living in expensive properties that take them over the threshold. To them the cost of setting up and maintaining a trust wasn’t worth the hassle.
The lucky ones are those who leave their home to a member of the family. With their allowance as a couple plus the allowance for the home saying in the family the total offset is £ 1 million.
A man I worked for for 15 years had a family trust that included the factory buildings and land. The company paid an annual rent of £2 million to the trust for the use of the buildings. Around 10 years after my departure the company became insolvent with substantial debts. The factory buildings and land stayed in the trust untouched by the insolvency procedure. Last year one of the factory sites was sold for £19 million.
The dentist I go to has a family trust.
It may well be that the farmers are getting the rough end of the stick.

I would gladly pay inheritance tax as that would mean my assets are worth more than £1 million pounds! I'll accept that anyday!

Having said that the deceased will not have to foot the bill, the beneficiaries will. And they shouldn't complain as they have inherited it and it's cost them nothing. Its a free windfall for them!

Like you have previously stated, it will not have a devastating impact on the small farmer who grows his veg, fruit, has a few dairy cows etc.

Its the capitalists who are purposely buying farm land with the ulterior motive being financial gain as opposed to having a productive farm.

Farmers have been whinging and crying poverty since I was a kid them Tory rich boys don't like parting with it do they

Absolutely right, Handsomeminer.
Its just another tax evading fiddle for them
But the government in power has sussed them all out and blocked their bolt holes and escape routes

The majority of those in the farming industry are hardly what the usual suspects are commenting on and not much winging will be done by them when they are out in all kinds of inclement weather in the fields and hills looking after their cattle and sheep, but perhaps a bit when they are hit by things like a foot and mouth epidemic.

At the same time, much winging will be done by those who do not work or have no intention of working for a living if they do not get regular increases in their benefits and especially if their benefits are stopped if caught abusing the system.

Its got absolutely nothing at all to do with farming! It's the inheritance tax that they are crying about! Ive pointed that out before to you. It seems that it didn't sink in.

I blame William the Conqueror in 1086 !

I wonder what Whupsy thinks about it

He blames Margaret Thatcher in 1984 !

Pathetic whinging Tories and farmers

cheshirecat

Are you saying that if you were a wealthy, you would think the same way about the inheritence tax.

Why some people are always envious of others being better off after working for what they have is typical of many like yourself in our country!

The fact that that they are the people who create the wealth and provide the jobs and incomes for people does not seem to sink in with yourself and your mate Handsomeminer!

Posted by: Owd Codger (3844)
cheshirecat
"Are you saying that if you were a wealthy, you would think the same way about the inheritence tax."

I most certainly would

I stated on this topic on the 28th Nov 2024 at 15:32 that I would!
It's still there so scroll up and have a look.
It's about time you paid a bit more attention in class instead of staring out of the window all day.

cc we need farmers ,they are an essential.Not aiding the farming community is monstrous loonacy.
A country needs to be self sufficent in food production at all times,especially in these times . we cannot keep reducing our industries of all types to be at the mercy of foreign goods.
this so called british government need to get its act together sharpish.
ps good post basil

I agree with you, bakerboy. They are essential.
But they are not protesting about the cost of growing crops, raising cattle / sheep etc. They are crying about having to pay inheritance tax which they will not pay anyway as their beneficiaries will pay it!

They also have a reduced rate of payment at 20%. Other property and private landowners have to pay 40%. And they are still moaning!

Also lets not forget that a lot of farms are rented, not owned. Some owners bought the land as an investment. Not because they wanted to be farmers, but because they wanted to avoid paying tax. Now, that loophole has been closed.

I suspect the protesters are the latter, not the genuine hard working class farmers.

I have genuine empathy with the honest, hard working, working class farmer. Not the likes of Clarkson.

My uncle was a farmer, and in the 1950s my extended family clubbed together and bought a farm, a dairy farm with him at the helm, and he and his family, my aunty and cousins struggled to keep their heads above the water, it was a hard life, and I remember in the 1960s when the government in the form of the Ministry of Agriculture, or whatever it was called in those days, turned up one day at the farm and shot all of his cows, because they had foot & mouth disease, the compensation they got from that actually put them back on their feet so to speak, but they were never well off, so those criticising farmers, should show some respect, because they are a very important part of the economy, especially now post Brexit.

baker boy and Tommy Two Stroke

Exactly, where would we have been foodwise in two world wars without them?

Wealthy or otherwise!

Tommy.
Those genuine farmers akin to your uncle are the genuine farmers that I admire and respect

Cheshire Puss

Thank yoo

Extract from a lengthy piece in today’s Telegraph.

Farms are not ordinary businesses. They represent a very particular choice of lifestyle, which is uniquely physically demanding, highly dependent on uncontrollable external factors (particularly the weather), and generally with very low profitability.
Outdoor working, being in touch with nature and the seasons and, most relevantly in this case, owning your own long-term asset – the farmland itself – which can be both inherited from a parent and passed down to an offspring, are the glue that has kept UK family farming alive.
Farming is by nature long-term. Good years follow bad and vice versa but farmers will persist, often against logic, in trying to make a living out of the variable growing and market conditions which constitute UK farming.
It wasn’t always like this. Until the beginning of mechanisation in the 19th century, farming was the UK’s pre-eminent industry and occupation, employing more people than any other sector and capable of feeding the millions who worked on the land, and indeed the whole country.
But the economic and demographic trends in the later 19th century and the subsequent two centuries have all been pointing the wrong way for farming. The commodities produced – temperate climate crops – have all fallen massively in real value, through mechanisation and competition from trade.
The costs of producing food in the UK – labour, land, energy, fertilizer and regulation have all risen in real terms, with only machinery falling in real terms.
Hence continued farming viability depends critically on enormous improvements in physical productivity, which have been achieved in some measure but not enough to leave most farmers anything other than struggling.
The Office of National Statistics (ONS) figures on labour productivity emphasise just how painful it is for farmers in financial terms. In 2023, the gross value added (output) per hour worked (the standard measure of productivity) in agriculture was £20.47/hr, whereas the average for the whole economy was £39.34/hr.
Productivity in agriculture was the lowest of any of the industrial sector classifications, even lower than food and accommodation services.
In layman’s language, farmers are earning less than waiters and employing a huge amount of capital to boot – capital which is scarcely making them any return. Most farmers would be financially much, much better off selling their farm, and getting a job – frankly, any job.
Why haven’t they done that? Many already have. Fed up with the overwhelming regulatory intrusions into their working lives – the financial and physical uncertainty, they have decided to quit farming. Farming, as a result, is now a tiny part of the UK economy – 0.7pc at the last count. Contrast that with medieval times, when it was 60pc plus.
The remaining family farmers have largely stuck with farming for the life it allows them to lead. Outdoors, independent and able to think long-term because their offspring – if they could persuade them – could take over the farm without financial penalty.
This Government’s abandonment of full inheritance tax relief for farmers may well be the nail in the coffin for farming in the UK. Why would you continue if your tenure is the last? Why not just sell and go? I would.

Must be right if it's in the telegraph

About half the UK's farms are tenanted so I would imagine the actual farmer who farms and rents the land / property would not be accountable for paying the inheritance tax as he only rents it as opposed to owning it? It would be the wealthy owner ( like Clarkson ) who actually owns the land who would pay it, not the working class farmer?

In 2024 there are 209,000 farms in England, 54% are owner occupied,31% are mixed tenure and 14% are wholly tenanted. 1% are unknown.
Full Agricultural Tenancies (FAT): tenancies agreed before Sept 1995, generally have lifetime security of tenure, and some have succession rights for close relatives. Can only be terminated in very specific circumstances which are set out in legislation.

From the TFF Farming Forum.
"There is a vast difference between the two, even if the owner/occupier is paying a rent in terms of a mortgage repayment."

"1. The Owner/Occupier had no Landlord or agent to answer to.
2. There is every incentive to improve the farm in the long term.
3. There is opportunity to implement diversification, build a house or sell a bit of land."
4. There is an added advantage of (usually)a continuous capital appreciation of the farm.

"The tenant farmer has none of these advantages, and the only long-term benefit is the ability to build up a capital asset of a herd of cattle
or flock of sheep. All an arable farmer has is an ability to end up with field of stubble and outdated machinery."

"So why would anyone want to be a Tenant farmer?"

Like I have previously stated its the wealthy farm / land owners like Dyson and Clarkson who are doing all the crying because they have to now pay inheritance tax! I don't many of the farmers who did all the protest were Tenant farmers!

Look at Clarkson. He opened a restaurant on his farm in what was supposed to be used as a lambing shed, so the council shut it down.
Also he farms alcohol, clothes, kitchen acessories etc.

He also owns a pub where can dine in on Lancashire Hotpot for £19!

Now make your own mind up
Is he is a ,hard working, devoted, genuine, working class farmer of the land?

CC

You’re in a minority. Public support for the farmers is on a par with that for nurses and ambulance workers.

Jeremy

That link has abdolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the farmers, nurses and ambulance workers. Not a mention of them

Its just an opinion poll ( probably 100 people voted? ) to ask what you think of Clarkson. We could have the same poll on Wiganworld

What has that link got to do with farming and inheritance tax?

Keep banging that Tory drum Gaffer another 4 year to go

Handsomeminer

Are short one line comments, the extent of your debating?

At least your mate cheshirecat can debate, even when losing and clutching at straws.

Posted by: Owd Codger (3851)
"Handsomeminer"
"Are short one line comments, the extent of your debating?"

You are hardly in a position to criticise anyone regarding debate!
On a regular basis you are asked to back up your posts with facts. But, you never do!

Now, go and spend your £10 Christmas bonus at you're mates pub, Clarkson the hard grafting, poor farmer. If you add £9 to it yourself, you can get a plate of hot pot
Are you on benefits as you qualify for a Christmas bonus? Nothing wrong with admitting it. A lot of people are struggling at the moment.
According to a previous post of yours, you have to be on certain benefits to qualify for it?

Benefits qualifying for £10 Christmas bonus.

Adult Disability Payment
Armed Forces Independence Payment
Attendance Allowance
Carer's Allowance
Child Disability Payment
Constant Attendance Allowance (paid under Industrial Injuries or War Pensions schemes)
Contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance (once the main phase of the benefit is entered after the first 13 weeks of claim)
Disability Living Allowance
Incapacity Benefit at the long-term rate
Industrial Death Benefit (for widows or widowers)
Mobility Supplement
Pension Credit (the guarantee element)
Personal Independence Payment
State Pension (including Graduated Retirement Benefit)
Severe Disablement Allowance (transitionally protected)
Unemployability Supplement or Allowance (paid under Industrial Injuries or War Pensions schemes)
War Disablement Pension if over State Pension age
War Widow's Pension
Widowed Mother's Allowance
Widowed Parent's Allowance
Widow's Pension

Posted by: Owd Codger (3851)
"According to the DWP website, the £10 Christmas Bonus will now only be paid to those who are on some kind of benefit!"

And pensioners!
Do you class a state pension as a benefit, owdcodger?

As far as I'm aware Rachael Reeves has not altered the criteria of eligibility for this bonus. I'm not 100% sure though. If she hasn't, why bring her name into it?

Lets see what owdcodger has to say about this!

A Pension is not a Benefit

Tommy.
Try telling owdcodger that

Posted by: Owd Codger (3851)
"According to the DWP website, the £10 Christmas Bonus will now only be paid to those who are on some kind of benefit!"

Tommy.
The non contributory state pension could be available for people if they do not qualify for the contributory pension. Albeit, at a reduced rate.

cheshirecat

I only repeated what it said on the DWP Website and no, I am not on any benefits apart from a bit of state pension due to always having worked for a living and paying into private pension schemes which far too many today do not want to do by not working and relying on the wefare state to look after them.

As for the comment about Rachael Thieves which I did nolt create, why should it bother you unless you are a voter, supporter or even a member of the Labour Party?

Oh, and I do not not have to pay any £19 for any hotpot as my good wife makes a very good Lancashire Hotpot!

A bit of state pension ?

"a bit of state pension"

I think his comments about people on benefits has backfired on him.

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

Meow

Have a read LINK

Firstmate.
The emphasis was on " A bit of state pension" !

I wonder which bit it is ?,don't suppose we,'ll get a sensible answer

At least I am not a sheep when it comes to an election!

Mr Codger

Have a nice day

I guess that's another question you can't answer ,your imagination runs riot at times dosn t it ?

It does not take long for you to respond to the bait.

Even less than just a little bit!

Come on coach tell us which bit

I don't think that yoo two are really that friendly with each other, are you ....

I understand what Old Codpiece means when he says he gets 'a bit of state pension'. I only get 'a bit of state pension' and that's the 'bit' which I paid for rather than 'full' which I didn't pay for. The rest of my pension is made up of 'a bit of Mineworker's pension', which also isn't 'full' as I only worked there for 12 years.
However, the 'bit of Mineworker's pension' which I do get, when added to the 'bit of state pension' which I do get, makes a 'bit more than the 'full' state pension' which I don't get. Get it? That means I could have Goose for my Christmas dinner, should I wish to.
I should imagine OC (D?) is referring to the same scenario?

Which brings me onto a comparison ........

Last week, I spoke to my Catalan neighbour (who is 81) about their state pension and he told me that both he and his wife get over €1600 a month each state pension, working out at €323 a week, each.
They don't seem bad off!
A comparable couple in the UK would get over £950 a month each state pension.
And their living outgoings (council tax / water / electric / gas etc.) are a lot less than ours!

Ia m in the same boat tonker but I Am not a whinging Tory propogandist

I can't afford to have a Goose at Christmas

Turkey twizzlers for me thanks to 6 months of Labour government undoing all the good work the Tories did over the last 14 years

So.
As I understand to qualify for a full state pension you have to have 35 qualifying years of National Insurance contributions ?

If you only receive a " bit of a state pension " does that mean you have not paid enough NI contributions in?

CC

Not necessarily. The difference between the basic state pension and one including the voluntary extras, such as Serps, is £ several thousand per annum. The former would seem a bit when compared to the latter.

Chesh., in a nutshell, it does.
Basic state pension is applicable to people born before the 6th April, 1951. Those born on or after 6th April, 1951, will get 'new state pension' which is much more.

Thanks Gaffer, and Tonker for the explanations.

The way I read it is that if you opted out of Serps you would receive a lower state pension, and pay less in NI contributions?

As far as I'm aware, I personally have never opted out.
I'll find out next year when I'm entitled to it!

CC

The basic pension didn't change if you opted out of one of the extras, if you opted in you got a higher pension but paid an increased contribution.

You can find out how much your pension will be by asking for a forecast.
For an online check enter on Google, 'Check your State Pension forecast'

Gaffer and tonker

Thank you for explaining the difference between the contracting in and contracting out of the state pension to cheshirecat!