Sleepwalking into decline.

Started by: gaffer (7096) 

Work-shy Britain is sleepwalking into a doom-spiral of decline

The country is in denial about the calamity of zero growth, a broken NHS and a culture of entitlement
Allister Heath, Daily Telegraph.
4 May 2022 • 9:30pm
Allister Heath

Everywhere we look, Britain appears broken, our society, economy, culture and institutions in severe decline, the product of two generations of political leaders who have refused to tell us difficult truths. Maddeningly, the pathologies that are eating away at our prosperity and quality of life – the generalised public and private incompetence, the buck-passing and free-riding, the collapsing NHS, dysfunctional housing market, stagnant economy, decrepit infrastructure and toxic culture-war idiocies – feel increasingly unresolvable, unfixable even.
We are stuck in a vortex of decline, immobilised by warped ideologies and the power of vested interests. We know we need to change, but nobody can pull it off. Even Brexit, a truly revolutionary project which gave hope to millions, has temporarily been neutralised as an agent of change.
Take “our NHS”, the supposed “envy of the world”: there is a taboo, an omerta around admitting how bad and unreformable it has become and how many lives it now ruins. Any politician or senior figure who breaks this code of silence faces immediate cancellation.
The truth is that the NHS as it really exists, rather than in the delusions of fantasists, is a farrago of broken promises, disappointments and failings – a mad bureaucracy that is sucking in ever more money and delivering care that is all too often inadequate. Covid has shattered it permanently: despite Boris Johnson’s massive injections of cash, more than one in 10 British adults are on waiting lists, a national disgrace. Out-of-pocket payments for private healthcare are almost as high a share of national income as in the US, the Financial Times has revealed. Individuals should be encouraged to take responsibility, but this demonstrates that the NHS is failing to provide even a decent safety net.
Another few billion won’t change anything given the imploded structures and imbecilic management: socialism never works. The GP system is beyond repair, doctors and nurses are over-worked, operations keep getting cancelled because of a lack of beds, we don’t train enough health workers in Britain, care costs and the challenge of ageing have yet to be addressed and patients are treated as supplicants.
Labour has no answers: Clement Attlee invented this dreadful system, which relies entirely on the state, rejects the help of the private sector and eliminates all individual autonomy. Labour is also to blame for the greatest lie in British politics: the claim, made whenever the Tories want to reform the NHS, that they are about to “privatise” it, abandon its universal nature and turn it into a caricature of the “American” system. It’s a monstrous untruth and prevents all progress.
Unless some means is found to smash this political logjam and allow a real debate about how healthcare is funded and delivered – I suspect that a radical proposal would need to be followed by a major campaign and be ratified by a Brexit-style referendum – life will keep getting worse for tens of millions, and taxes will keep going up, asphyxiating the economy in the process.
Our absurdly expensive and grossly under-supplied housing market is another ticking time bomb. Attlee also laid the seeds of this debacle with his centrally planned approach, and it all finally went wrong at the turn of the century: until then, prices had risen roughly in line with earnings over time, but stagnant wages, cheap credit, a booming population and smaller households put paid to this.
Far too great a share of our wealth is invested in housing, and not enough in companies, dragging growth down. Britain’s future is as a nation of yeomen and women, of freeholders and mass property owners, not of neo-feudalism, baby-busts and declining relationships and families. Do we really want to push the youth even further into the embrace of nihilistic neo-Marxist movements obsessed with class warfare?
We need a new approach to setting interest rates that takes the need to prevent housing bubbles into account, and we must build a lot more of the sorts of homes people want to live in – overwhelmingly, well-built and pretty houses with gardens – where they want them. The current proposed reforms are either too small-scale, or designed to provoke a political backlash that no government can resist.
Just like with the NHS, progress will require a national debate followed by a bold, revolutionary proposal to release a vast amount of (mainly agricultural) land to build new towns and suburbs and some extra two million homes in record time. It will require another Brexit-style referendum: how else will the tyranny of the status quo be overcome?
Britain’s transformation into an Italian-style low-growth economy is the third major pathology impoverishing our nation. Here, too, political discourse is stuck in demagogic wishful thinking.
The scale of the catastrophe is terrifying. Real incomes are falling, as are real savings. Inflation is at its highest level in decades. Real wages may take until 2025 to return to 2008 levels. Millions are struggling to make ends meet, despite the expansion of tax credits. Productivity growth never recovered after the financial crisis. Private investment is low. The trend rate of growth is far weaker today than it was in the 1990s. Taxes are at their steepest since the 1940s, and spending at its highest sustained level since the 1970s.
Even though our economy has almost stopped growing, we are in denial. Old and young are living beyond their means, working fewer hours, obsessing about work-life balance, interested only in going “green” or enjoying unaffordable triple-locked pensions. We are extracting ever more from the productive sector. We want to decarbonise, but refuse to build nuclear plants. We feel entitled to ultra-cheap loans. Millions act as if they have the right to work from home. The private sector has succumbed to the dead hand of woke capital and a certain kind of HR culture. There has been an explosion of red tape, leading to a massive misallocation of resources. Incentives to work have been eroded, and tax credit welfarism is a major issue. It’s as if we want to be poor. The free-marketeers were right: higher tax and government consumption as a share of GDP reduces growth.
Britain was once a Wunderkind: we reformed our stagnant economy and ended the relative decline of the post-colonial years. All of this is ancient history: the UK is once again on a downward trajectory, and this time we don’t even seem to care.

Started: 5th May 2022 at 17:11

Posted by: admin (1210)

EXCELLENT ARTICLE Re the NHS last week got a letter from the ENT department saying the clinician has studied my notes and I was being discharged.. I rang them up and told them that I've been waiting 12 months to see someone and haven't seen anyone yet...?????? I asked who was the clinician who looked at my non existent notes and decided to discharge me? Still waiting a reply. BUT they have said they will send me another?? appointment.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 19:27

Posted by: Platty (1341)

Gaffer: I read that this morning. It seems to me that politicians are paid far too much and to them, it's all a game. In order to stay in power they pinch the other side's policies and eventually, as now, Labour have nothing to respond to because the Tories are, in fact, a socialist government.
None of them have any interest in maling "the plebs" lives better.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 19:48

Posted by: broady (18181) 

Read last week that 3million plus patients had registered with a doctor in the last few years. Doctors numbers are declining and lots more coming up to retirement age so the problem will worsen. I was an NHS child and treated under it for 56 years. I have now been in a different system where it is all free for sixteen years and I have had quite a few treatments. Three minor operations during Covid. Total access to my doctor throughout Covid. I have never waited more than two days to see him. Cataracts removed from both eyes no problem in an ultra modern clinic. Most doctors and specialists are self employed, maintaining their own premises and staff and using hospitals to carry out procedures. They bill the local health authority at pre-arranged rates. Seems to work OK and I stress again no cost to me. We do have to pay a portion of our prescriptions and nothing that is sold over the counter can be supplied on prescription.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 20:12

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)

Is it not the case that the massive increase in the population of this country, due to the free movement of people from the EU starting in 2004, and before that a steady trickle of immigrants from India and Pakistan, has caused there to be a strain on the infrastructures in this country, such as the NHS, Housing etc

That mon from the Telegraph does not say anything about that does he, and as regards the Whupsies of this world saying that the NHS is going to be privatised, then how do you privatise something which is a money pit, and not fit for purpose, because it would not be a viable business, so who would want to buy it ?

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 20:42

Posted by: Platty (1341)

TTS: precisely, but we're not allowed to mention the immigrants, the population is expanding exponentially and the infrastructure cannot sustain it. They are moaning about sewage going into the rivers; they are allowed a certain amount, but it has increased over the last year to illegal levels, but they have no option. Our reservoirs can't cope.
Until they start recognising the real problems of immigration, things will only get worse.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 20:58

Posted by: broady (18181) 

Does no one have a boss these days? I saw that excuse for a PM saying the other day that he would like to help out people struggling, because of price increases etc. , out more but the Chancellor wouldn't allow him. I thought the PM was in charge. Every day we read of people suing for unfair dismissal etc. because of hurt feelings. For goodness sake. The bosses must be afraid of telling them to do anything in case it " offends them" Thank goodness I am retired.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 21:09

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

BoE now predicting largest falls in real incomes since records began, and anticipating ANOTHER 40% fuel price rise next Autumn.

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 22:39

Posted by: whups (8491) 

i wonder who,s fault it is ? .

Replied: 5th May 2022 at 23:57

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Time you woke up and the fact that no matter which party is the Government, the country is on a downward slide.

Why do think that only a average of about one third of the electorate are bothering to vote when they see the politicians of all three major parties at both local and national level now more interested in feathering their own nests than what they are in those who vote for them.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 07:42
Last edited by Owd Codger: 6th May 2022 at 08:27:37

Posted by: Platty (1341)

Ena: if they got rid of the 5% vat and the 26% green levies and reduced the standing charge, fuel costs would be manageable. Who voted for all this green stuff and why should we pay for it?

Owd codge: well said. It is all about them keeping their jobs, not us. Should be the other way round.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 08:12

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Time that VAT was reduced to only 10%, especially with the present hike in fuel and energy charges.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 08:30

Posted by: whups (8491) 

if anyone wants to wake-up it,s people like you codger who just lie back & complain without doin anything . the whole point of this vote is to send a message to this bunch of hypocrites that,s running the country now . this is why people dont go to vote because of your kind of rhetoric .

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 11:45

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)


Who did yoo vote for

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 12:32

Posted by: Platty (1341)

whupsy: The only people I know who vote labour are considerably better off than me. They are finding it difficult to rail against the so-called privileged these days.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 12:41

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


That's why they like the immigrants doing the low pay mundane minimum wage jobs while they enjoy the life of riley on the benefit system with its additional perks like free dental treatment.

How can you have a system where some are better off not working than what many are getting in a low pay mundane minimum wage job on a conveyor line or farmers field?

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 14:26

Posted by: whups (8491) 

i,d like to be a £1 behind you platty .just for the record asylum seekers cant claim anything until they get a NI number & can only claim £5-66 a day to clothe & feed them .most of which have been in concentration camps for over a year in kent & pembrokeshire .

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 15:20

Posted by: broady (18181) 

The world is a sorry mess. The US just hiked interest rates by a record amount, Australia first rise in a number of years, India raised theirs and it goes on and on. Our prices are going up weekly. IMO it will get worse before it gets better.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 16:14

Posted by: tonker (25234) 

Bloody somnambulists, eh.?

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 16:27

Posted by: Platty (1341)

Daisy: Being in a concentration camp still hasn't deterred them has it? And on top of the £5 - 6 a day, they get housing, heating, meals.....

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 17:00

Posted by: AngelWood (759)

It's all about the money and pure greed. Money isn't everything and I expect most of the huge earners aren't happy people.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 23:26

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)

The love of money is at the root of all evil.

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 23:45

Posted by: whups (8491) 

it,s never been any different where the torys are concerned .

Replied: 6th May 2022 at 23:53

Posted by: AngelWood (759)

Whups, do you ever have anything positive to say?

Replied: 7th May 2022 at 00:29

Posted by: broady (18181) 

Never. Griping about parking fees at the hospital this week and doesn't have a car. Been out of the house very rarely recently. Seems to think Labour are the be all and everything. Not a comment about Starmer. Posts on the Sports page and hasn't been to OT for yonks.

Replied: 7th May 2022 at 06:50

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


The "concentration camps" you refer to are former army or air force camps which were good enough for our service personal and are you saying that if a Labour Government was in power, they would house them in better accommodation like holiday camps with no security.

And a protest vote in local elections does not mean that the same will happen in a General Election when it is a case of which party is best at running the country and nothing to do with issues like the stupidity of partying in a lockdown.

Replied: 7th May 2022 at 07:44
Last edited by Owd Codger: 7th May 2022 at 07:52:21

Posted by: whups (8491) 

your so "out of touch" & yet another beratement on the labour party . the comparison with this tory party is wider than the grand canyon & they broke their OWN RULES on umpteen occasions .your telling everone on here to ignore wot this lot has done ? . i think you owe a massive appology to everyone on here who,s lost loved ones by sticking by the rules put in by these jokers at downing st . you shud be ashamed of your comments .

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 11:35

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)


Yesterday you were telling me off for name calling. Do the same rules apply to yourself…. Or are just going to carry on slagging off the Labour Party, it’s supporters, and everyone connected with Wigan council?

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 13:23

Posted by: whups (8491) 

your a good 1 broady . you lie at every chance you get as has been seen on the sports pages . your trying to say iv,e not put positive posts on here when there is NOTHING POSITIVE about this lot in office . angela wood when you come back on here & bleat about the cost of living or gas & lecky prices & not getting any help from this lot i,ll remember about your statement .the only thing is positive is the rich get richer & tory donors get bummed up by trade missions to india by someone who looks like an alpaca . .

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 14:49

Posted by: broady (18181) 

So have you got a car, how long since you actually stood on the terrace at Old Trafford, are you a paid up member of the Labour Party and do you have an Irish background? Why should I lie on the Sports pages? Everything there is opinions, mostly on the current United team.

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 15:20

Posted by: whups (8491) 

how long have YOU stood there ? . yes i am a paid up member .you put on there about wan bisaka,s motoring offence which is nothing to do with football & the united team & was to back up a loser like laughing boy . your a united fan , in your dreams as no united fan would put crap like that on ,your childish & a liar as your posts prove .

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 17:14

Posted by: broady (18181) 

Not this century which I openly admit. I back up no one. I may agree with them. I would be a liar if I said they in any way resembled a good team. The club is rotten. No answer about the car even though you were moaning about car park charges last week. Something you won’t pay.

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 17:20

Posted by: whups (8491) 

did,nt you lie when you said "i dont claim a red cent from the uk" then conveniently forgot your claiming a pension ? .and i have a blue badge .

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 17:23

Posted by: broady (18181) 

Enough. I am embarrassing myself debating anything with you. I didn’t conveniently forget anything. But please yourself.

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 17:38

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)


Yesterday you were telling me off for name calling. Do the same rules apply to yourself…. Or are just going to carry on slagging off the Labour Party, it’s supporters, and everyone connected with Wigan council?

Replied: 9th May 2022 at 18:47

Posted by: whacker (1001)

I never could understand why Brits complain bitterly about the NHS but scream bloody murder at the thought of the NHS being scrapped. Or sold. Then one day it dawned on me. Brits think the only alternative to the NHS is no medical coverage at all, accompanied by huge bills only the hated rich can afford, the rest of the populace dying in the streets. It never occurs to them that what they need is a new system. As with so many things, people are afraid of change.

The last thing you want is rank amateurs like the government tending to your care. What the hell do they know?

Some years ago, I wrote a piece on here telling of a much-loved family member finding a lump in the morning; she was x-rayed and scanned that same afternoon, consulted with oncologists the next morning, and was operated on in the afternoon. Total, two days.

I was immediately informed by several blockheads here (offense intended) that I was lying. That couldn’t be done in England, so it certainly could not be done in the USA. In short, I made the whole thing up, lying about a person I dearly loved, lying about the medical services, just to score points in an obscure online Wigan chat site.

At that time my monthly health insurance, which includes all hospital treatment and care, including eyesight teeth and hearing, was $70 a month, covering my immediate family. It was that much for 26 years, ever since I retired, and only recently zoomed to $72 month, thanks to Biden’s inflation.

We have Medicare for the middle class, and we have Medicaid for the poor. It’s free. In that it is paid out of taxes.

I have been taking blood pressure pills for thirty years and never paid a dime for them. Some rare expensive drugs were all reduced in price by President Trump who made the pharmaceutical companies compete for business. (Biden has since overturned that and those prices are back up).

Doctors, surgeons, and nurses work every day of the week. (Many of the nurses are Brits.) Yes, including weekends. The poor, those with no insurance coverage at all simply go to the nearest ER and are taken care of at no cost.

No American is ever deprived of medical attention. Promptly and of high quality.

A development in the last decade are doctor and nurse manned facilities open 24/7. They are usually called Instant Care, or Immediate Care, or similar. These are large, usually free standing, buildings, brightly lit, busily manned. They NEVER close. Wake up at 1 am on a Christmas Day Sunday with the pain of the shingles, or of falling and breaking a leg, they take care of you right away. And they accept your insurance. They are great. My wife and I both used them in. separate emergencies and all we paid was a $10 per person co-fee, less than two burgers and fries at McDonalds. There are more than. 10,000 of these operations around the USA and more are under construction. For most Americans the Instant Care facilities are closer than a hospital. They planned it that way.

PS Has it ever occurred to you that the BBC and Channel 4 lie to you?

OK. Let the disbelief and abuse begin.

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 00:31

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Thanks for proving what I have intermated, but which is it, Labour Councillor, Labour Party member or Wigan Council Officer?

Don't be shy!

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 00:39

Posted by: broady (18181) 

I was under the NHS for 56 years and I have now been under the Canadian system for 16 years. One thing they have in common is that it costs me nothing. I was in the UK recently and listened to all the horror stories regarding lack of appointments during the Covid crisis. People are dying, going blind etc. because of cancelled appointments. The NHS waiting lists are very lengthy. You cannot get to see a dentist but a hardcore, and lots of the knob heads are on here, refuse to consider change. As long as it is free to them what is the problem. My Doctor has been available as usual all through Covid.

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 05:30

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Exactly, many who vote for a certain political party cannot face up to the fact that the NHS is no longer coping to deliver the same level of service as in the past and will not accept that the time has come for some draconian measures to be taken including more use of the private sector if it is to continue to provide the same level or even a better level of service for everyone.

If I want a Doctors appointment, I have found that the only way to get one at our surgery is by standing outside at 8.00 when they open as by the time you make contact on the telephone or the internet, they have all gone, irrespective of how serious a problem is

The other week I spent over five hours in the evening at Wigan Infirmary before I saw a Doctor which in the past would never have been the case!

Its 2022 and not 1948!

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 08:37

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)

Bloody hell Todger you can’t half do some moaning!!!!

Who do you think cares???

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 13:10

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


All the many hundreds like myself who are having to put up with the same problems week by week.

Except. those of course in a Private Health Insurance scheme.

Cap fit?

p.s. Still waiting for you to confirm that you are or are not, a Labour Councillor, Labour Party member or an Officer of Wigan Council.

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 17:53

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)

Actually Todge I am really John Stonehouse but dont tell everyone

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 18:10

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

Just been on local TV news. Where I live, almost impossible to get NHS dental treatment. People again turning to health tourism, and seeking treatment in East Europe and South America.

I recall when we had sufficient dentists and high quality treatment.

Has been the actions of Government that created this problem!

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 19:16

Posted by: whacker (1001)

A tiny dentistry anecdote. Newly married, I took my wife to a dentist in Chester. She had a broken front tooth courtesy of a back hander from her foster mother. The dentist looked at the gap, and said "Why? Are going to make movies or something?" and he turned us away.

Six years later we had moved to the USA and my wife was at the dentist's office for a six monthly cleaning. He asked why she had a broken tooth and I told him the story, including the Brit dentist's refusal. . "I can fix that," he said, and did a beautiful invisible repair. We were delighted. I asked him how much. He grinned. "No charge," he said, "welcome to America."

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 21:21

Posted by: First Mate (724)

". He asked why she had a broken tooth and I told him the story"

Could your wife not speak for herself?

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 21:32

Posted by: gaffer (7096) 

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 21:39

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


So you are a ghost as well!

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 21:57

Posted by: whups (8491) 

everything private . that,s toryism for you .

Replied: 10th May 2022 at 23:47

Posted by: whacker (1001)

First Mate. No. As I said, she was in for a semiannual cleaning. It is difficult to speak when your teeth are being cleaned. It is very hygenic. You should try it. I am sure everyone on your street will be grateful.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 06:06
Last edited by whacker: 11th May 2022 at 06:49:28

Posted by: broady (18181) 

I go to see my dermatologist having waited two FULL weeks for an appointment. He is on the third floor of a building. Ample FREE parking. I go in and see a receptionist. I then see the Dermatologist and his assistant. No non productive people walking about. Do my business. Say my goodbyes. No cost to me. They are self employed and charge the Government a set fee. What is wrong with that? I had some BCC’s removed there. No cost.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 06:26

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Only people like yourself and fossil who are still living in the days of the loss making nationalisation cannot face the the fact that the NHS will have to have some private investment in it, if it is to remain as a free Service for those at the lower end of our society who cannot afford to be in a private health insurance scheme.

We are in a situation of a population boom, mainly due to immigration, so any finance, be it from Government or the private sector is to be welcome if the same level of same level of essential public services are to be maintained or even improved.

Even Labour Controlled Councils like Wigan are now run as a business with some services which used to be "in house" now in the private sector.

Yourself and fossils out of date political thinking reminds me of the Luddites who would not accept change in the workplace when machinery was being introduced.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 08:27
Last edited by Owd Codger: 11th May 2022 at 17:38:36

Posted by: whups (8491) 

luddites you wrote the book laughing boy . there,s no need for private money in the nhs & if you want your own health on the cheap then gud luck to you as for me i dont .wot,s it going to take for fools like you to realise that the torys have systematicaly deprived the NHS of money it badly needs & waiting lists have gone thru the roof forcing people in abject pain to go private & if we have a private health care you wont be able to afford it because the torys want to make a "little america" of this country . iv,e been to the states & travelled all over the lower states & seen 1st hand the system they have there & you wont like it owd fool . if you can afford around £3 ,000 for a scan or £ 20,000 for a hip replacement then fine . just remember that these medical insurers have teams of solicitors who look to find fault so they will NOT have to pay out . good luck with your idiotic vision owd fool .

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 12:08

Posted by: grimshaw (3309) 

JUST had a post from a pal with a photo showing happy smiling tories at the opening of a new foodbank in a town in kent .
Cutting the ribbon is the big gutted tory mayor supported by his equally well over weight wife ..The m p for the town is tory who had a brexit campaign
Disgraceful .

Makes my piss boil .

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 13:43

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)

Say Cheese


Replied: 11th May 2022 at 14:43

Posted by: whups (8491) 

say no more . enough said .

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 15:12

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)

They are smiling, because it is going to be a good thing for their community, it will help people.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 15:20

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

In news, just (various sources)

1.5 Million households will face food and heating costs which exceed their disposable income.

ie They would not be able to afford such costs even if they did not spend any dosh on owt else!

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 17:28

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)

How many of you have received a long awaited appointment to see a Doctor or a Consultant and been given the option of visiting a NHS Hospital or a private Hospital like the Beaumont in Bolton?

How many who have had transport to or from a NHS Hospital have travelled in a mini bus of a private sector taxi company?

Time some took off the blinkers and faced the reality that more and more hospital services will have to be provided by the private sector to support the already overworked NHS staff and provision to maintain the present standard and even improve it as the population continues to grow at its present alarming rate.

How many of you die hard Labour voters are going to turn down any appointment or operation made by the NHS, but provided by the private sector because of your out of date left wing socialist principles?

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 18:15

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)

Oh FGS!.......put a sock in it!!

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 18:31

Posted by: gaffer (7096) 

Owd Codger.

The Blair government introduced the Choice Agenda some 20 years ago. The act stipulated that patients were to be given a choice of hospitals if they were to be given an appointment for a consultation or procedure. One of the choices had to be a private sector one.
The Choice Agenda was quietly dropped by a subsequent government.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 19:04

Posted by: grimshaw (3309) 

You clearly have a very warped mind if you think that picture is in anyway funny onestroke.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 19:15

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)


I agree, if I thought that photo was funny, I would indeed have a very warped mind

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 19:24

Posted by: grimshaw (3309) 

Thank you .

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 19:29

Posted by: sonlyme (3158)

I had a hernia op done a few years ago through the NHS at a private hospital.Free newspaper and two bed room.I said to staff nurse,this must cost the NHS a fortune.The reply was,I'ts actually cheaper because of the way the NHS cost treatment.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 20:50

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

I can tell you from experience, that the costs which are indicated in accountancy models often bear no relationship whatsoever to any true, actual costs.

We once had an accounting entity which had a cost of over £5,000 to move someone (no special needs) half a mile in an ambulance!

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 21:03

Posted by: whacker (1001)

"iv,e been to the states & travelled all over the lower states & seen 1st hand the system they have there & you wont like it owd fool ".

Total BS. YOU have been all over America the lower United States? And from that you found a medical system you didn't like? How about some proof? Give us some some samples with figures, names and dates.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 21:05
Last edited by whacker: 11th May 2022 at 21:15:10

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Thanks for the update on private choice as I was unaware that it had been dropped by a change of Government which I assume you mean to be the Tories.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 21:08

Posted by: gaffer (7096) 

The NHS has a national tariff which gives standard prices for all procedures. It works well in practice.

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 22:01

Posted by: whups (8491) 

started in new orleans then dallas fort worth then tuscon then huston then by plane to frisco then oakland then albuquerque then came home from there as my dad was in hospital & was there over 2 mnths living with people who ronnie knew . it,s well known by people on here that i did the darts circuit in the states with ronnie baxter & ste cusick .is that enough for you whacker ? .so now you can bullshit your way till the cows come home fool .

Replied: 11th May 2022 at 23:58
Last edited by whups: 12th May 2022 at 00:07:01

Posted by: whups (8491) 

the waiting list is so long your not given any option . iv,e waited 7 months to see a consultant at wrigh/ton iv,e got to see him back end of this month . those "private taxis" run by aviva was railroaded ages ago for not turning up . wake up codger & stop spreading lies .

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 00:12

Posted by: broady (18181) 

So you have waited so long. Does that not tell you the system isn’t fit for purpose. I feel sorry for you having to wait but , sadly, your views are so archaic. A footballer is no good unless he plays for United. The problems with the NHS are down to the Democratically elected Government. Look at the big picture. United are crap as are the Starmer gang. Just for the record, and from afar, I think your Government are morally corrupt and I think Basil is a **nker.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 05:29

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Correct in everything you have said!

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 06:42
Last edited by Owd Codger: 12th May 2022 at 07:01:42

Posted by: whups (8491) 

how would you know codger . your listening to someone who could,nt hack it here & left 20+ years ago .

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 11:31

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)


Why are the hospital waiting lists going up ?

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 11:39

Posted by: whups (8491) 

because of lack of tory investment & getting rid of nurses plus the closing of wards & bed shortages . and lets not forget the morale issue by working the nurses half to death . so wots your veiw .

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:05

Posted by: Domin0 (326)

It maybe because in the last 10 years, 6.5 million Migrants have registered with GPs.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:20
Last edited by Domin0: 12th May 2022 at 12:21:40

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)


Correct, and might also explain a great deal of the shortage in housing which has occurred in the same ten years.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:36

Posted by: whups (8491) 

wot a load of crap.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:50

Posted by: Owd Codger (765)

Apparently, there is now a shortage of paramedics which is hardly surprising when like everything else due to the increasing population, supply is not meeting demand.

But at the same time, never any shortage of people wanting to be MPs and Councillors!

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:51

Posted by: gaffer (7096) 

Covid effect NHS England.
Between January 2020 and July 2021 elective care involved 6 million fewer patients than would normally be expected. In the same period 7.5 million fewer people were referred to consultant led elective pathways compared to pre pandemic numbers.
Most of these people will now be on waiting lists. It is the intention of NHS England to increase capacity by 30% to clear the backlog.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 12:51

Posted by: broady (18181) 

More verbal diarrhea. I left in 2006. Get out your calculator. Push 2022 then the minus button and then 2006 and see what it says. That is what is known as the answer. The 20+ years is when you last donned a pair of work boots.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 13:07
Last edited by broady: 12th May 2022 at 13:14:37

Posted by: Domin0 (326)

Whups, the load of crap came from the Lancet Journal.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 13:25

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)


"so wots your veiw"

If someone who has got a few bob in their pocket, needs an operation, and skips the hospital waiting list, by paying for the operation to be done at a private hospital, either in full, or partially, with a contribution from the NHS, however the system works, then that saves the NHS money, and it reduces the waiting list for NHS patients, so what is wrong with that ?

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 14:23

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Whups. Thank you. That explains everything. You spent a very brief stay in the American south on a darts circuit. Of course your are an authority on the American health system. How could I ever have doubted you.

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 14:56

Posted by: whups (8491) 

over 2 months actually & lived in the suburbs with the people . and yes i saw exactly wot their system was about .when in fort worth just down the road from where we were staying there was a mexican bar . one day someone had a heart attack & the ambulance came & he had no credit card , he died there & they just threw a coat over him . the chap we stayed with was called gerald forester & he worked for the government & checked out accidents that happened at work , he told us that this happens all the time & if you,ve no money basiclly your history even if you have medical insurance that they look at every loophole they can as to not to fork out . so yes whacker iv,e had a good lesson on their medical system by someone who works for the government .cynics like you are only interested in fault finding which is disgraceful & doubt everything without having no experience in any subject . so what,s your own experiences in the american medical system , i,m agog waiting to read YOUR experiences & if you have none that will explain everything about you ,wont it .

Replied: 12th May 2022 at 15:21
Last edited by whups: 12th May 2022 at 15:22:28

Posted by: whacker (1001)


Baloney. EVERYONE is attended to in the US; even if your Mexican had no insurance coverage he would have been helped. We even take care of illegal immigrants - and there's not a chance in hell they will pay for their medical attention. Medicaid. - not to mention dozens of charitable organizations, look after people without coverage. That is what it is for.

"...and they just threw a coat over him" shows how you shape things to suit yourself. "Gently overed his face.." would have been nearer the mark. But I notice that in all your posts you twist everything to suit your own distorted views.

Have you not noticed? Your guys, the communists, are now running the US. It is an absolute disaster.

And by the way, your miserable syntax, run-on sentences, spelling and grammar are appalling. You are semi-illiterate. Do you think you should be calling everyone who disagrees with your fumbling points, "fools?"

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 14:53
Last edited by whacker: 13th May 2022 at 14:57:24

Posted by: whups (8491) 

if anyone is full of it ,it,s you . and still no experiences of the us medical care . i never said he had no insurance did i & it,s a FACT that medical companies employ soliciters to exploit every loophope just like bad holiday insurers . you leave a lot to desire as a human being whacker & i,m extremely glad there all not like you .i can prove it but it seems your like some on here who cant prove a thing & look to answers from a search engine .is that clear enough for you , FOOL .

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 15:08

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Looks as though you can't read, either.

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 15:42

Posted by: whups (8491) 

looks like you cant either fool . that clear enough for you .

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 17:09

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (9655)

How can someone, who is having a heart attack, authorise a credit card transaction ?

Suppose someone is out, and they have left their credit card at home, is it tough poo, and they die ?

Do ambulances in America take Debit Card Payments ?

PayPal ?

And what about cash ?

Do the paramedics carry a card payment machine around with them ?

Do the paramedics offer a payment plan, pay a down payment, and then pay monthly, the paramedics keep yoo alive, but if you cancel the plan during the 14 day cooling off period, they come around to your house and shoot yoo

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 17:20

Posted by: Domin0 (326)

I watched a programe on TV a few years ago about a train, which travelled around the US, and quite a lot of doctors treated people who could not afford treatment free, there was lots waiting for that train.

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 17:53

Posted by: Platty (1341)

TTS: You really are classic! "Do the paramedics.........Come around to your house and then shoot you". Nearly, nearly got wet!! Can't wait for his informed reply.
My nephew is a cardiologist in San Francisco. He trained here, France and the USA. He told me when he was younger he, and all his colleagues, used to do all this medicaid type stuff to get the experience of these "lower" ailments, diseases and breakages, etc. They were never involved in the addictions. He said there are clinics in the poorer areas and there is a rota (similar to our Citizens Advice Bureau with solicitors) for these doctors to attend.
All free.

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 18:08

Posted by: Platty (1341)

Whacker: I can't read Daisy's posts. This is a person who must spend 90% of his time on a keyboard. I am presuming he is indigenous yet this country spends £billions on education and this is what we get.
He doesn't know where the apostrophe is on his keyboard, he cannot distinguish between "your" and "you're" puts a comma in "i,ve", spells solicitors as "soliciters". Was it him who typed "responce", didn't notice the pull up and continued to defend it?
Worse, for me, is that he cannot engage in intelligent discussion, cannot see a "grey" area, cannot concede a single point, and anyone who disagrees with him is a "fool".
Therefore all the people in the world should agree with him, think about that!

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 18:17

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)

If he starts making a fool out of you Platty............. just put him on ignore!

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 19:47

Posted by: cheshirecat (289) 

Posted by: Platty (1217)
"I can't read Daisy's posts."
Your above post suggests otherwise

Who are you trying to kid!

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 19:48

Posted by: Stardelta (9761)

Not me

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 19:50

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Stardelta. No. The first thing they do is try to resuscitate the patient.

Case in point: Our first year in this country. We were not covered by insurance when our daughter was born. As we checked out, baby safely wrapped in our arms, we told the accounting department we had a little chunk of money, but not enough to pay the bill. No problem, we were told, send us payments when you can. So we did. And got a charming thank you note from the hospital at the end. Years later we sent them a nice check as a donation.

Patty, well said. These people have no idea. They think because the NHS stinks, everybody else must be worse. No idea whatsoever.

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 21:40
Last edited by whacker: 13th May 2022 at 21:47:14

Posted by: broady (18181) 

They have a waiting list of millions, can't get to see a Doctor for a routine appointment and yet want to hang on to a 70 year old system. A lot of their Doctors will be hitting retirement age shortly and the problem will worsen, ally that to an increasing and aging population and they will be in the mire.

Replied: 13th May 2022 at 22:42

Posted by: Platty (1341)

Cheshire kitty: maybe I should have defined it and added "any more". I don't read them, it is hard work. I glance at them, see the word "fool" everywhere, how many times has he put that on here? See "i,ve", etc. and just shut down.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 11:39

Posted by: fossil (7317)

My wife fell on a dark night,on a poorly lit street on Sanibel Island in Florida,injuring her wrist.
Great service at the local clinic and then a visit to a fracture clinic in Fort Myers.
A cracked bone in her wrist so a plaster cast and the x rays and a consultation with a English born doctor cost £950.
It was good that the insurance covered most of it.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 12:40

Posted by: whups (8491) 

wot if you lived there & could,nt afford it fossil ? .

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 14:24

Posted by: baker boy (15603)

platty bad grammer te he aint a crime

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 21:31

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Bakery "platty bad grammer te he aint a crime"

Good writing tells readers the truth, or how to get to the truth. Bad writing, or in this iteration, execrable writing, tells us all about the author.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 21:45
Last edited by whacker: 14th May 2022 at 21:48:29

Posted by: cheshirecat (289) 

Speaking of spelling.
Posted by: whacker (992)
"later we sent them a nice check"
Over here It's cheque. Not check.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 22:15

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

I rarely wish to respond to misspellings or typos.

I was however intrigued by a recent post, where one of our members said he had "intermated"!

Could not help wondering, with which species?
Was the breeding a success?
Were the offspring viable?

I did intend to stay my hand, and not comment.

But since it is a topic of conversation here, I thought, what the hell......

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 22:37

Posted by: whacker (1001)

" wot if you lived there & could,nt afford it fossil ?"

Posts from this guy are what makes lemmings leap off cliffs.

"Afford" gives you away. Nobody can afford medical care; that, they will tell you, is the job of government, i.e. other taxpayers. Politicians have convinced a mindless populace that medical care is, and should be, free. People who wet their pants at the thought of paying for medical care, will cheerfully spend good money to have their darts blancoed or whatever they do. Politicians lie to you. Why? They don't care about you; the only thing any politician of any party cares about, is being reelected. Its as simple as that. The last thing they want is to give up all those perks and all that uninformed power. Look to the government, and you are screwed. The NHS is a perfect example..

But I digress.

For Whups. One. More. Time.

In the US of A: The wealthy have their own private doctors They are on call all day, every day. Think Bill Gates. Hugh Hefner. I don 't get that level of care.

An upper middle class gets coverage from insurance companies at no, or low cost. That's because many companies continue coverage after an employee has retired until he/she dies. It is commonplace. Some policies with really good coverage require a small premium. I fall into that category and pay a co-pay of a skinny $72 a month. Less than dinner for two at a cheap restaurant. My bank pays it for me, so I never even notice it's departure every month. I am also regularly insured by Government program Medicare at no charge to me.

A middle class either buys health insurance on the open market, or - by far the majority - is insured by the company they work for. Sometimes the companies have to do this, or a worker won't go to them. They, too, are covered by Medicare.

Finally, the indigent, those who cannot afford insurance, can go to any hospital they wish, by ambulance if necessary, AND BY LAW WILL BE TREATED AT NO COST, NOT EVEN A CO-PAY. Whether you are white, black, Latino, flat broke, a criminal fugitive, or an Islamic terrorist, you will receive prompt attention. These people are, or can be, also covered by Medicaid. (Not to be confused with Medicare.)

It it as good as Bill Gates or Hugh Hefner's, care, no. But neither is mine. And I love the health care I get here. It runs rings around the NHS and I know that because my family in England tells me about the NHS and a much beloved aunt - like a slightly older sister to me - died as she was wheeled into surgery. She had suffered one delay after another, for three weeks. Which I am told is pretty good time for the NHSD. When her frantic son called her doctor when she took ill, he had to make an appointment for his mother to speak to the doctor by phone. That was a week after she took sick. The quack told the son to buy some over the counter pain killers.

So Whups, there you are. Question answered. Your apology is accepted.

Now somebody check and see if Whups is back on his meds.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 22:46
Last edited by whacker: 14th May 2022 at 23:09:32

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Cheshirecat. I know that. I prefer check, and that's what I use. However, I prefer theatre to theater - it sounds more - theatrical. In my books I use a mixture of English spellings and Webster spellings. Mostly English spellings have a nicer ring. Glamour instead of glamor, for example.

PS No matter what, I prefer ). to .) any day.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 22:53
Last edited by whacker: 14th May 2022 at 23:12:08

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

I will not offer any blanket defence of NHS, even though I worked for them for decades.

For twelve years, my boss in NHS was American. He has since returned to USA, and OWNS a large Health Provider Business.

He has extensive experience of both systems.

His opinion, based upon immersion in both, is that the best of US healthcare is far superior to best of UK's NHS.

And that the worst of US healthcare is far inferior to the worst of UK's NHS.

Which, is after all what you would expect, and is consistent with the masses of published health care research.

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 23:03

Posted by: whups (8491) 

i dont apologise to people like you whacker an idiot who has to look at his spelling before he sends it out . were not on here to have spelling lessons we are on here to converse with each other .

Replied: 14th May 2022 at 23:49

Posted by: ena malcup (1113) 

I think the source of NHS's problems is that the voice of the user (patient) and the voice of the purchaser (tax payer) get drowned out in the conflict between powerful bodies: the government, political ideologues, representatives of Medical and of Nursing Professions, and some (and ONLY some) NHS management; the outcome of which determines the service that we get.

Not surprisingly, outcomes which are not in the interest of patient or tax payer abound!

Replied: 15th May 2022 at 16:57

Posted by: whacker (1001)

Ena Malcup.

Succinct. Thoughtful. Accurate. Beautifully written. Good job.

Replied: 15th May 2022 at 21:04


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