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HS2

Started by: chris southworth (599)

I have seen elsewhere a reference to a report on last nights evening news that the proposed HS2 rail line is to be cancelled north of Crewe. That of course would include the absurd link onto the WCML just south of Wigan.
Good news or what?

Started: 27th Jul 2021 at 10:07

Posted by: roylew (3362)

Seems like good news to you Chris…tbh I think the money would be better spent on the road infrastructure around Wigan…ie Standish by pass…link M6 to M61 (as proposed)…general tidy up…saving 20 minutes on a 200 mile train journey seems ludicrous to me..especially when the so called business people get off the train and then get stuck in a traffic jam for an hour or so

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 10:15

Posted by: PeterP (8782)

How many millions has been wasted on the death trap "SMART" motorways. With this government trying to force vehicles OFF the roads why do we need an extra lane on our motorways

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 10:26

Posted by: roylew (3362)

Because mr and Mrs average now have 3 or 4 cars on their drives…it’s just crazy

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 10:28

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

How many of those cars are on the road all at once? I have three cars in my garage but I am only capable of driving one at a time, thus only one of them is using road space. My next door neighbour has five cars. One each for the parents, one each for the adult children and a classic. Thus four could be using road space at any one time. We do not have a bus service.

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 10:53

Posted by: whups (6623) 

it shud never have been started in the 1st place . a bigger "white elephant" than the millenium dome.

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 11:06

Posted by: PeterP (8782)

Now Now Anne you should use a bike We only have one car and could not manage with out it. Hard work getting a wheelchair on and off a bus never mind with any shopping.Our son has two cars they live at Astley he works in Bolton and she works the other side of Warrington. Not many people in this day and age live and work in their local area.

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 11:10

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

Exactly Peter....could either of my next door neighbours take time off to ferry the boys to college? One in Wigan, one at Edge Hill. Even in that household I don’t think all are out and about at the same time.

Replied: 27th Jul 2021 at 11:17

Posted by: roylew (3362)

Why don’t the boys live on campus

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 07:43

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

Roy..... living in Winstanley I can’t see the point of living on Edge Hill campus. Maybe it is just as cheap to provide a small car. Wigan college, is there campus accommodation? Bear this in mind, if either parent could fit into their schedule ferrying back and forth it would mean four journeys per boy per day as opposed to two journeys per boy with their own transport. That could probably be said for many families. As Peter says few live on the doorstep of work or education these days.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 09:30
Last edited by Anne: 28th Jul 2021 at 09:33:45

Posted by: jarvo (30145) 

Brag brag brag. Give it a rest.

There a kids on the street living rough. And others that can't get jobs.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 13:37

Posted by: PeterP (8782)

Jarvo the hospitality industry is crying out for staff,And there must be a reason why a kid is homeless

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 14:20

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

Forgot to say, there are two motorbikes in there as well.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 14:26

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

I agree with the notion that to spend billions and billions of pounds on a railway, which will shave half an hour off the present Manchester to London rail service is pointless, if someone needs to get from London, or Birmingham to Liverpool or Manchester quickly, they can fly there instead.

However

The other argument is that a new line would free up capacity on the existing rail network, which at present is very near to running at full capacity, so by the passenger trains using HS2, then the existing WCML could then carry more freight and local services, I am in favour of that, but I don't think that HS2 is the way to go (pun)

So as I have said before, why don't they reopen the most suitable railway lines which were closed during the era of the Beeching cuts in the 1960s, because in many cases the original track beds are still there, and the emphasis would be to put the freight and local services back on to those newly reopened lines, and free up capacity on the existing Intercity Network, which would be the the opposite of HS2

As regards HS3 the line from Liverpool to the East Coast, then something does need to be done about the existing cross Pennine routes, because they are slow and crap, so how about reopening and rejigging some of the old and existing railway lines, to give a frequent and fairly fast new service across the Pennines, there could be several routes available to do this.

So I am saying to the government is to use what you have already got in terms of the closed but still largely intact former rail network, surely those lines could be reopened for a fraction of the price of HS2 and to which it would serve the entire country, not just one track corridor, which is the existing WCML

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 15:24

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

The Manchester Sheffield line which went through the Woodhead tunnel should be a priority for re opening. It was an example of an early electrified line, unfortunately non standard, which closed when the coal traffic to Fiddlers Ferry power station was switched to alternative lines by BR.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 17:27

Posted by: broady (17185) 

How many actually use the train. Apart from travelling with the Wembley Club I don’t ever remember using it. My work took me all over the UK and when ever I looked at using trains it was a no go. The big downside was I would have no vehicle at the other end. I could have hired but my employer wouldn’t have been happy at that as I had a company car.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 17:32

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Broady

Pandemic aside

The trains are rammed full these days, and the surge pricing mean they are bloody expensive if you travel at peak times.

Passenger Statistics

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 18:30
Last edited by Tommy Two Stroke: 28th Jul 2021 at 18:41:10

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Gaffer

The old Woodhead Line is one of the closed lines I am thinking about, the closed section is from Hadfield, where the line ends now, to Penistone, where the line continues, and it is just less than 15 miles as the crow flies, and although the Woodhead Tunnel, now carries electric cables, that being the newer tunnel which was constructed in the 1950s, modern tunnelling technology means that it is easier and cheaper to construct a separate new tunnel, using the modern TBM machines, than mess about reopening closed tunnels.

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 18:40

Posted by: roylew (3362)

My son was on the Padgate campus…came home at weekends sometimes…thought that was the point at being at uni….

Replied: 28th Jul 2021 at 21:50

Posted by: jarvo (30145) 

It went completely over your heads...

Replied: 29th Jul 2021 at 11:53

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

Whoooosh!

Replied: 29th Jul 2021 at 13:04

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

CAMPUS ........

TRAMPUS!

Replied: 29th Jul 2021 at 17:17
Last edited by tonker: 29th Jul 2021 at 17:20:14

Posted by: Handsomeminer (1739)

Why don't you retire Jarvo let some homeless kid do the sweeping up

Replied: 30th Jul 2021 at 12:51

Posted by: PeterP (8782)

HS2 Eastern has been stopped due to cost

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 08:59

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3997) 

First of all i am totally opposed to the HS2 rail project, having said that this corrupt gov will go ahead any way irrespective of my views. So i would like to suggest that whilst this project is brand new could the designer's /builder's seriously look at the train systems in america and canada to name just two, which carry carriages on a double deck system , thus increasing capacity thus making more room. My point is that i know that at the present there are many,many low bridges ,but as i said at the beginning it's all new so cater for higher coaches quite simple really construct higher bridges along the network .In a documentary recently it showed a train leaving Chicago and apart from it being very long that had two tier coaches for me thats the way we should be thinking . Though i have to state to save these rich yuppy types who will be able to fork out the cost of a train ticket in the first place to help them get to London 15 minutes earlier is an absolute waste of tax payers money !!GB

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 11:57

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

GB

HS2 is about creating extra capacity on the west coast rail network.
In 2009 Geoff Hoon, the then Labour Transport Secretary, set up a company HS2 Ltd.,to consider a new high speed rail line. In 2010 plans for a Y shaped line from London to the north were set out by the Department of Transport.

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 15:00

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

G B....although the interior of the double decker train you watched on tv could be altered to sitting passengers only the train leaving Chicago would possibly have been a long distance sleeper. These trains carry passengers accommodated in the main, two to a compartment, seating converting to full sized bunks. Plus dining cars, observation lounges, shower rooms, toilets kitchens and all supplies fuel and water, that is the reason they are so long. The one I travelled on from Seattle to Chicago was double decker as tunnels were built for them. The train from Chicago to NewYork single decker because tunnels could not be altered to cope with them.
p.s. What I am saying is, those trains are not ram jam full of passengers, no standing room at all.

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 16:24
Last edited by Anne: 31st Jul 2021 at 16:32:50

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

My youngest lad is paying us a visit next weekend. Hitchin to Wigan, 170 miles = £80 each way!

When you consider that it only cost me £4.99 to come from Barcelona to Liverpool on Sunday night, £80 seems a bit steep!

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 16:35

Posted by: jarvo (30145) 

Col: I couldn't if I wanted to. I'm in love with the Toyodas.

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 16:48

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3997) 

ANNE: I appreciate what your saying but as this hs2 is a completely new project bridges could be constructed to accommodate higher coaches as for tunnel 's i am trying to think were there would be any but if there were to be places where a tunnel was needed i am sure that would not be a problem for today's engineers . so i stand by my original comments to have two tier deck coaches that would double the capacity of a train for example of 500 to 1000 on the same journey ,and thank s for pointing out to me your travel experience in the states . This is also for you GAFFER by doing what i have just written you can double capacity at a stroke ..GB

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 16:52

Posted by: Stardelta (8358)

The whole point of HS2 GB is that it will increase capacity on the now 100 year old west coast line. This will allow more individual train movements both passenger and freight and take a massive amount of vehicles off the crowded motorway network. Furthermore with it being a brand new system the running and maintenance costs will be reduced.

How many truck movements will double-deck passenger carriages take off our road network?

Its not all about passenger numbers on individual trains or how quick it takes to get to London for those you describe as `yuppies`

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 17:15

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

GB
How would you run a service on the west coast mainline whilst converting the bridges and the much more difficult tunnel conversions?

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 17:17

Posted by: First Mate (312)

Golden Bear

The entire East Coast and West Coast main lines would have to have the entire length of the overhead electrification raised and replaced, should be able to be done in around 10+ years if the service is suspended, not forgetting that the entire rail stock will have to be modified to reach the wires

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 17:34

Posted by: daveo18 (22)

Tonker - Hitchin to Wigan return next weekend (assuming travel on Friday & Sunday)
with a railcard - £70.25
no railcard - £106.50
Not cheap, but certainly not £80 each way (=£160)

Replied: 31st Jul 2021 at 22:34

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3997) 

FIRST MATE ;; I have read it's going to take over 10 years from now !!!!! and we all know that target will NOT be met ,,
GAFFER :: YOU COULD LEAVE OVERHEAD CABLES UP JUST DIG DOWN DEEPER ALONG THE TRACK that's one thought and i do not subscribe to your theory about ((( more difficult to dig tunnels )))
What about the CHANNEL TUNNEL ???? Have you seen these tunnel machines ??? NO i don't believe anything today is difficult ,, it's a matter of having the GUMSION ........GB

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 14:43

Posted by: broady (17185) 

GB,
A lot of my old colleagues have been working for a number of years diverting all the service pipes along the route ready for the new line. A lot of the gas pipes are in the 30-40” diameter range so very technical. It isn’t just a case of “ digging a deeper hole” Ground conditions may not allow for deeper holes. If you start from scratch a great idea, if not a total impossibility.

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 14:48

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Would it not just be easier to add more coaches to the trains, and lengthen the station platforms

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 15:27

Posted by: Anne (4002) 

If the train I travelled on between Chicago and NY was single decker as opposed to double because tunnels could not or it was too disruptive to alter them does that not say anything. On the double decker I don’t remember any bridges crossing the line other than Gathurst viaduct motorway type as we left Seattle.
On the other hand the London cross rail tube line has woven its way successfully amongst underground obstacles of every type including historic buildings foundations.

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 15:55

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

Dave18 ....... It seems like it's hit and miss prices!

OUT
Fri 6 Aug 2021
Non-rail legs on all routes
Hitchin to Wigan North Western

Off-Peak Single - £74.50


Standard
1st class
17:11
20:25

Price
£74.50

Price
£153.90
3h 14m
,
2 changes
17:56
21:27

Price
£74.50

Price
£153.90
3h 31m
,
2 changes
19:11
22:46

Price
£74.50

Price
£133.90
Only 3 left
3h 35m
,
2 changes
19:41
23:31

Price
£74.50

Price
£133.90
Limited availability
3h 50m


Going back,Monday morning .....

OUT
Mon 9 Aug 2021
Non-rail legs on some routes
Wigan North Western to Hitchin
Earlier
Standard
1st class
07:10
10:19

Price
£108.80
Limited availability

Price
£188.80
Only 1 left
3h 9m
,
2 changes
07:29
11:19
Timetable unconfirmed
3h 50m
,
3 changes
08:11
11:38

Price
£129.80
Only 2 left

Price
£210.30
Only 6 left
3h 27m
,
2 changes
08:29
12:08
Timetable unconfirmed



Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 16:06

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

It is called rip-off pricing, in that the higher demand for a particular service, the more they charge for that service, it is actually called 'surge pricing' and is should be made illegal, for instance on a documentary about Paddington, it showed travellers who wanted to buy a ticket on a Friday afternoon for a 18 mile journey, and the train company wanted to charge them £180 for it, when the normal fare was less than a tenner.

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 16:32

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

GB

It’s not enlarging tunnels that’s the problem. It’s running a full train service at the same time. For example if the tunnel between Rugby and Daventry was closed the alternative route would have to operate at reduced capacity whilst adding up to half an hour onto journey times.
I started my working life in the railway industry and a chartered mechanical engineer. Perhaps it gives me a slightly better understanding of the feasibility of incorporating your ideas into practice.

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 16:43

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 20:11

Posted by: cheshirecat (204) 

Are those First Class prices, Tonker?
If so, thats why its so expensive.

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 20:30

Posted by: tonker (23930) 

They are both, Chesh, like it says on the tin -

Standard then 1st class

ie: Standard

Price
£74.50

1st class

Price
£153.90

Replied: 1st Aug 2021 at 20:36

Posted by: riocaroni (202)

Since Avanti took over from virgin the price's have rocketed but it is worse on the London route. You can still get a reasonable day trip to Edinburgh.

Replied: 3rd Aug 2021 at 11:05

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

I thought that the government had taken over the railways, and they were doing away with all of this ripping off.

Replied: 3rd Aug 2021 at 14:52

Posted by: whups (6623) 

it,s against tory policy as all public concerns must be ripped off & put in the pockets of their rich friends . dont yoo know that 1stroke .

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 16:02

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Our Boris is not like that Whupsy

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 16:04

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

TTS

The government owned the railways from nationalisation. The companies running the services didn’t own them they were agents for the government with fixed term contracts.

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 16:32

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Gaffer

I understand that, but I thought it was announced that the government were doing away with the franchise system, and would be bringing the ticket pricing and stations under direct state control, and the train companies would be paid to run the services, instead of the train companies paying the government to allow them to run the services.

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 18:52

Posted by: gaffer (6840) 

TTS
The franchise system will be abolished. Network Rail will be in charge of ticketing and pricing. They will appoint private companies to operate services on the basis of a flat fee and performance bonuses. Sufficient companies will be offered contracts to provide competition. It will all be under the umbrella of Great British Railways.

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 19:21

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

Replied: 4th Aug 2021 at 19:26

Posted by: whups (6623) 

in your dreams 1stroke . it shows just how johnson is when the NHS saves his life then gives them a paltry 3% pay rise & then trys to sell off our NHS by putting private health care companies on the NHS health board .

Replied: 5th Aug 2021 at 11:54

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (7814)

I wasn't on about the NHS I was on about the railways

Replied: 5th Aug 2021 at 13:04

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3997) 

GAFFER: Why thank you very much for explaining that to me not like some who would have been totally abusive about it once again thanks its great to hear from the shall i say someone who has had in house knowledge ...GB

Replied: 5th Aug 2021 at 14:58

 

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