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ELECTRIC CARS 2029

Started by: GOLDEN BEAR (3230) 

I just cannot understand the statement that boris released about doing away with petrol/diesel. Could he or any one else explain to me where is ALL this electric going to come from???? we have NO coal fired power stations / gas is being gradually phased out so where is it coming from??? Nuclear ?? We all recall the problem in USA , and to add what about the hiccup the CANADIANS had a few years back when something shut all thier elecrticy down , What would happen here if that were to happen?? Finally when you consider that as a supposedly industrialised we are the size on a DOT on this planet will that make any difference when all the other major industrial nations are still belching out coal fored power stations i just ask what the hell is it all for ?????? COULD IT BE TO MAKE MORE MONEY FOR THESE FACELESS CAPITALIST'S ?????????????????

Started: 26th Nov 2020 at 16:44

Posted by: peebee (513) 

The Lecci companies struggle to cope with demand for kettles at half time, what chance have they got when all the workers come home and plug their cars in.??????

Replied: 26th Nov 2020 at 17:19

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3230) 

Hi there Peebee, im just a bit disappointed that there has not been more comments to my heading , like you say the national grid complain when we use items like kettles at important events i also like to think that things do change and we have to move forward but im sorry i cannot square the circle with this putting ALL OUR EGGS INTO ONE BASKET its just plain LUNACY !!! When i used to visit one of my daughters in ESSEX the amount of traffic we encountered om M6/M1/M25 / was Astronomical and i cannot see all those cars/lorries etc running of electric. IT IS just not sustainable then take into the mix ALL the household gadgets we use , well there you have it i guess at this moment in time people have other things on thier minds but as you know things creep up on you very quick hope yu keep well and safe ( PEEBEE) BYE

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 15:25

Posted by: gaffer (6576) 

GB

There’s a special EV cheaper tariff for charging an electric car battery through the night. Most owners will probably take the financial incentive to use it so not many will be plugging in when they arrive home from work in the early evening.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 15:32

Posted by: Platty (351)

GB don't forget eventually it will be mandatory for everyone to have a Smart Meter. The idea of those is for companies to be able to cut off your electricity without even leaving their desks.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 15:46

Posted by: peebee (513) 

How do the people on the tenth floor of a block of flats charge their vehicle.?????. No more coal fired lecccy, gas is also being phased out, so all we have left is wind and nuclear power and I am not convinced that nuke power is totally safe. The theory is brilliant but in practice it's all bunkum.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 16:27

Posted by: 0 years (4312)

"How do the people on the tenth floor of a block of flats charge their vehicle.?????"

They anticipate when they will need to recharge and go to the nearest charging point.

They don't currently fill up with petrol from their tenth floor block of flats, do they?

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 18:31

Posted by: Axcroft (192)

GOLDEN BEAR, yes, I agree, this is a subject that raises many imponderables. 
 
As peebee has posted, it's not just limited to cars and transportation, but to the whole economy, including how we heat our homes (gas heating banned in new houses from 2025).  One thing for sure, is that this change will only accelerate. 
 
It will be a tall order, within the timescale, to replace, and at the same time, increase generating capacity to meet the demand. 

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 19:06
Last edited by Axcroft: 27th Nov 2020 at 19:09:12

Posted by: peebee (513) 

Suppose all the charging points are full. It takes five minutes to fill up with petrol but all night to charge a sparky car. What are they going to do, wait until some one comes to unplug and dive in.???

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 19:06

Posted by: Platty (351)

Peebee, the plan is To get all private cars off the road. For the plebs to use public transport. Burnham has started this with his putting private transport into public. Costs to the Council Tax payer estimated at 18% on the GM mayor's precedent.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 19:22

Posted by: peebee (513) 

Well all I can say is, Thank God I will be dead by then, if it all boils down to pubic transport ( I know I left an L out). How will that work out when the next pandemic breaks out and a bus can only carry ten people at one go.?
Here in Blackpool we have had a few bus drivers dying of covid , the last job any body in their sane mind would want is a bus driver with mask less imbeciles coming close every few minutes.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 19:43

Posted by: 0 years (4312)

"Suppose all the charging points are full"

Go to a different charging station, just as you would if the petrol pumps were full/out of petrol.

"but all night to charge a sparky car."

Are you sure about that?

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 20:11
Last edited by 0 years: 27th Nov 2020 at 20:14:31

Posted by: certacito (184)

The Powering Britain series on bbc2 gave a good insight into the different sources of energy available. !

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 20:29

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)

Golden Bear

This whole thing comes down to infrastructure, electrical infrastructure.

For folk who keep their cars on the street, or anywhere where there are no charging points, then those people will have to visit charging points to charge their vehicle battery, and the speed at which the charge can be delivered, is down to the capacity of the battery in kWh and the power rating of the charge point in kW the higher the power of the charge point, the faster the charge, and the more the battery is depleted, then the longer it will take to fully charge, it's a highly logical sequence.

In practice folk will keep their cars fully charged, and I would imagine that in all 'commercial' car parks, every car parking space will have its own charge point, and when I say 'commercial' I mean car parks such as council car parks, private car parks, such as Euro Car Parks, supermarket car parks, shopping mall car parks, train station car parks, and they are going to be what is known as Cash Cows, the owners of those car parks will make a lot of easy money from charging vehicles.

Yoo will go to Asda and spend half an hour in there, so you get half an hour of charge, depending on the battery capacity, and power rating factors, in that half an hour of charge, yoo may get 50-100 miles of motoring, so for someone who just drives around town, or as we say now someone who as a low annual mileage figure, then having a car with ''NO'' home charging point, in an urban environment like Wigan, with plenty of charge points, then your quality of life will not be impacted adversely by having an electric vehicle, because wherever yoo go, you will be able to 'Top Up' your vehicle

BUT

And in my opinion there are an awful lot of 'buts' so many 'buts' that this whole idea of having all cars to be electric within a decade or two, if you include the phasing out of petrol and diesel vehicles, then that is going to be impossible to achieve.

Firstly there are driving practices, in that high mileage driving, whether that be someone who travels all over the country in their vehicles, as part of their job, then where are they going to get the time to charge their vehicles, in that if they drive 400miles, then they are going to have to have a big charge, which even with a mega speed charging point, that is going to take at least a couple of hours, not like now, taking five minutes filling up and paying for tank full of petrol, and less time if yoo pay by card at the pump, and that charging time for an electrical vehicle, is with future technology, so it will add hours to the working day of a such a driver.

Commercial vehicles, such as the haulage industry, think how much electricity they will need, in terms of battery capacity and charging point power, and that brings me to the next point.

If transportation is going to move from being powered by fossil fuels petrol and diesel, then think of the mega billions of extra kW of electricity production that will require, and as previously stated, we are almost at the limit of electrical power production capacity in this country now, because of the phasing out of coal fired power stations, and the closure of nuclear power station which have not been replaced, so there is just not going to be the electric available, and if most commercial car parks install charging points, then think of the electrical infrastructure which will be required to supply those charging points, in the form of sub stations and the extra high power transmission networks, so it does come down to infrastructure, many more power stations will be need to produce the extra electricity required, and many more pylons supporting the cabling to transport that electricity, and many more miles of underground power cables in towns to take the electricity to the charging points, and think of all the money that will cost the 'government' so in my opinion as a Wiganer, I will say that I think that it "Cawn't Be Done" in ten or twenty or even thirty years.

So if I don't think it can be done in the main population centres of this country, then how the hell will they doo it in the remote locations in this country?

Look at it this way, if you have a couple of petrol stations in the North of Scotland, supplying a remote area, and those two petrol stations, get two deliveries of fuel a week, of both petrol and diesel, then if a calculation is made of an average of how much fossil fuel vehicle energy is supplied by four fuel tankers, road tankers, the average per week, for that remote area, which includes all types and sizes of vehicles, cars, lorries, buses etc and convert that calculation to kWh if the vehicles were all replaced with electric vehicles, and then price up how much it would cost in the extra infrastructure to generate the extra electricity required, and transport that electricity by upgrading and increasing the National Grid electrical supply to that remote location, plus the addition of charging points, for folk who cannot charge their vehicles at home.

You probably wouldn't be talking millions of pounds, you might be talking billions of pounds, if an extra power station was required, compare that cost, to the cosy of four fuel tankers per week, it is just loodickerous, because throughout the country, you will need a lot of extra generating capacity from 'none' renewable energy sources, to guarantee the supply of electricity, because it is alright having wind farms all over the country and in the seas around this country, but yoo are buggered if the wind is not blowing, because no wind, no wind farm electricity, so you will still have to have gas and nuclear powered power stations, in reserve.

So in my opinion all vehicles converting to battery power, is a none starter (a flat battery)

Other technologies may work though, such has hybrid cars, with a fossil fuel engine for charging the vehicle battery in places where there are no charging points, and charging the battery whilst the vehicle is on the move and hydrogen cell powered vehicles

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 21:02

Posted by: Anne (3833) 

Another thing .... people with classic/vintage cars may well have what they thought to be an asset will prove not to be so.
Including recently bought motorcycles.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 21:27
Last edited by Anne: 27th Nov 2020 at 21:29:36

Posted by: 0 years (4312)

Excellent analysis TTS.

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 22:00

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)

Thank yoo

Replied: 27th Nov 2020 at 22:03

Posted by: GOLDEN BEAR (3230) 

Hello TTS,
I would just like to say thank you very much for your very informative comment i was totally absorb by what you wrote you went into a hell of a lot detail and i'm glad someone beside's me have found this whole idea an ill thought out proposal , but then i do suppose that is Boris all over . Hope you are keeping well Tommy bye for now ,GB .

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 15:14

Posted by: gaffer (6576) 

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 15:26

Posted by: Heatons68 (51)

It could be feasible to develop smaller , more compact power units that can easily be carried indoors for charging , and so carry multiple power units in the vehicle

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:23

Posted by: Domin0 (128)

.

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:36
Last edited by Domin0: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:38:44

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)

Heatons68

Like an hybrid model.

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:46

Posted by: Heatons68 (51)

aye , TTS forgeet about um

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:52

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)

Ok

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 17:53

Posted by: firefox (3239)

I have an hybrid

Replied: 28th Nov 2020 at 18:25

Posted by: bentlegs (4591)

Boris wont be about when all this has to be done so some one with a few brains will sort it out but i don,t think it will be in the UK.

Replied: 29th Nov 2020 at 14:52

Posted by: gaffer (6576) 

Britain’s first electric forecourt charged and ready
The Braintree site was built with a taxpayer grant of almost £5m
By
Oliver Gill
30 November 2020 • 7:11pm
Gridserve
Britain’s first electric forecourt will open next Monday as part of the £1bn rollout of a nationwide network.
The site in Braintree, Essex, is the first of 100 electric charging stations that will be opened over the next five years.
The landmark opening was delayed from November as a result of the second Covid-19 lockdown.
The station boasts 24 charging points that recharge electric cars within half an hour. A further six "superchargers" have been dedicated for Tesla owners.
There is a Costa Coffee, WHSmith and Post Office also on the site, run by startup Gridserve.
Earlier this month Boris Johnson confirmed that a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars would be brought forward to 2030.
The Gridserve forecourt is powered by solar energy and battery storage projects to minimise carbon emissions in generating the electricity.
Toddington Harper, Gridserve chief executive, said the forecourt based on a 2.5 acre site, "will be the most advanced charging facility in the UK, and possibly the world".
"Drivers will be able to turn up and charge their vehicle at the fastest rate each vehicle can support, using 100pc renewable energy, and with the best possible charging experience," he added.
The forecourt was funded by a taxpayer grant of almost £5m. Plans revealed in August came with the backing of former Conservative Party chairman James Cleverly, MP for Braintree.
A ban on new petrol and diesel cars, part of the Prime Minister's "green revolution" was labelled an "immense challenge" by industry leaders.
"Success will depend on reassuring consumers that they can afford these new technologies," said car body SMMT.
The plans were welcomed by others with Josh Hardie, Confederation of British Industry director, saying: "It gives a springboard to the huge opportunities for UK-wide investment and green jobs that a true low-carbon economy can bring."


Replied: 1st Dec 2020 at 21:03

Posted by: gasmon (25)

Retired now, but spent all my working life since leaving school supervising / planning / designing the replacement of old cast iron gas mains with new plastic ones around the North West. Just about finished, & they now demonise gas !!!!

Anyway, As to electric cars, ponder these points. Values are approximate.

Most houses have a 80 amp main fuse (some up to 100)
Car rapid charges at 45 Amps
Shower 45 Amps
Cooker 30 Amps
Have all three at full belt, TV, lights, etc etc and your main fuse blows. You can't replace it yourself.
Lots of houses have two or more cars - go figure
Your house electrical feed is sized at nominaly just over the fuse rating also, so a bigger main fuse won't help.

This design philosophy (load diversity) also goes way up the electrical supply chain, your house supply cable, street cable, feed to your local LV substation, up to your area HV substation, up to the Grid, Generating plant etc etc.

Car parks with lots of chargers ? - Think Tesco Asda - they will require a MAJOR umpteen KV electrical feed, new substations and HV feeder cables - VERY VERY COSTLY INDEED.

Also we have very doubtful spare generation capacity EVEN THROUGH THIS WINTER, add more and more EV's, year on year the whole network will require MASSIVE upgrades and modifications - who will pay ? - why US of course.

Lastly - the cost of EV's. A LOT more than petrol /diesel, and secondhand EV's are a great unknown, especially battery replacements - you're talking £thousands.

Most ordinary folk will be priced off the roads by 2030, and the powers that be know it and want that to happen.

Replied: 1st Dec 2020 at 21:04

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)

But if large commercial vehicles, such as HGV's and Coaches cannot be supplied with electric, then what is the point, because note that I say cannot be supplied with electric, not that the technology in battery storage will not be available, because even if cars and commercial vehicles are capable of performing equivalent to petrol and diesel vehicles, as regards the range of the vehicles, I cannot see in the foreseeable future, that the electric production is going to be there to supply those vehicles, I am highly dubious that there will be enough electricity to supply electric cars in this country in ten years time, never mind commercial vehicles any time after that.

It's all expensive pie in the sky crap.

It's good in theory, but impossible in practice.

National Electric Grid

Replied: 1st Dec 2020 at 21:14

Posted by: gasmon (25)

This is a good site also showing electricity production

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=dbnp08

Replied: 1st Dec 2020 at 21:47

Posted by: Tommy Two Stroke (6318)
 

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