Wigan Album

Smashing pic, taken mid to late-afternoon I should think, and when bedding plants were shown from tomato boxes.

What year was this photograph taken? I never knew Pariament Street in Upholland was that narrow. This is the main road between Wigan and Ormskirk. The buildings on the right must certainly have been demolished and the road widened. And what about those on the left. Baxters shop looks like it is a more modern building.

I remember the Baxter twins,Albert & Arthur, as cricketers at WGS.Later they were Bevin Boys.An older brother,Ben, an Army officer, was tragically drowned in a rowing accident

Philip: Looking at the angles of shadow, I would say late morning nearing midday...An afternoon picture would show darkness on the both sides of the street. The sun looks high - not low.

Donald Underwood - the Baxters who attended WGS were a different family, and lived in Claude Street, at Halfway House.
The Baxters who had the store in the photo, were the family of Maurice Baxter, who lived in Edgehall Rd, Orrell. He had three sons - Arnold, Lawrence, and Reginald.
They all went into business in their own right in later years. Arnold and Lawrence were both grocers, and Reginald (Reg) used his wartime RAF radar training to set up in TV sales, repair, and rentals.
Reg had his TV shop three doors down from the store, Arnold had his grocers a couple of doors further down, and Lawrence had his shop at Holland Moor.

MickLD Thanks for the correction I have lived for many years under a delusion

Possibly distant cousins Donald, but the family of the 'WGS Baxters' was originally from the Poolstock area, and were miners and millworkers.

Thanks for your magnetic response Jarvo. I'd based my assumption on Wigan being to the left (East), Skem' to the right (West) and Billinge straight ahead. I'd also realised that the sun is shown quite high, and, since then, that there might have been more shade to come. My recent photo of Parson's Slack (Billinge section) has the sun over to the right and out of shot at roughly 2:15 in the afternoon ('in the afternoon' sounds dandy), so perhaps something more could be had from that in relation to our shady shade. Remember Dingle Belles, and the mini rock-face that the shifted Lyric had revealed? Lo! I must mention a snowy night of '62', in which Eddie and myself trod this road, looking for the fairest of classmates who never came - the things you imagine when finding your way.

Remember it well going to my aunt Winnie Gaskell who lived in the house next but one

Upholland Wigan?

Philip G, I'd say you are right to say afternoon with the sun going over to the west, it must be high in the sky too with the dogs shadow being small, the rear of the shop would be facing towards Winter Hill.
Was that shop at one time Dingle Belles car accessories.

There's only one Upholland James Hanson.

Thanks Cyril. I've had the map out since responding to Jarvo's post and it proves that you and I are on the same, correct, sunlit bearing. I'm not sure if Baxter's handsome building had become Dingle Belle's, but if it hadn't then 'Belles would have been no more than a stone's throw away. Having said that, and despite me having been through 'Belle's side door on only a couple of occasions, I remember its decent car park and Winter Hill-side drop. Drop, eh? I discovered the Netherton Road Flute Band on youtube last week and was amazed at its Drum Major's dazzling, mace twirling skills - he's a Championship winner, and twirls by the name of Dinky. Right then, that brush handle that's propped-up in the corner of mi shed ... .

Cyril and Philip G - yes, the Baxters building did become Dingle Belles in later years.
For many years, it was used as a warehouse by Lord and Sharman, then in the mid 1970s, Dingle Belles car accessories opened in the building. It was a later a car phone/mobile phone shop, before being demolished about ten or fifteen years ago.
Mr X. All the property on the right hand side of the road was demolished after WWII, and the road widened considerably.

Thanks Mick. Spotted a great photo of the Bull's Head on School Lane (Ted Ray's former home) yesterday, but couldn't make it tally with what lies there now, so I guess that's gone as well. I'm told the building with the pavilion roof had been a Bank.

Correct re the bank, Philip. A rose garden now stands on that spot.
Re the Bull's Head - it stood on what is now the corner of School Lane and Brooklands Road - a recently built house now stands on the site.
I understand when they were building said house, they uncovered what was left of the old pub cellars.

James Hanson, UpHolland was historically always "UpHolland Near Wigan". Attempts to make it "UpHolland Skelmersdale" were made in recent years and were largely ignored both by people in UpHolland and Skelmersdale. It still UpHolland near Wigan, or, UpHolland, Wigan to me and will always remain so.

Looking towards the church you are looking east, not west...

I am correct. It is late morning.

Name: Maurice Baxter
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 23 Jan 1890
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 14 Edge Hall Road
Residence Place: Orrell, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Draper Household Members:
Name
Maurice Baxter Draper
Magaret Baxter Unpaid Domestic Duties
Marian Baxter Commercial Clerk & Typist
Arnold Baxter Shop Assistant (Grocers)

Thanks for the 'lead' to the Bull's Head pub, Mick.

I would love to think my ancestors went in The Bull's Head pub.. It's lovely around the village.

I think Up Holland and Dalton came under Wigan council till the boundaries changed, if you look on the old pumphouse near Dalton church a stone lintel says Wigan Urban District Council on it.

DID SOME COURTING IN LORD AND SHARMANS DOORWAY BACK IN THE 1960'S THE DOORWAY MUST HAVE GONE BACK 10 YARDS ..FROM THE MAIN ROAD IDEAL SPOT WHEN IT WAS RAINING..<G>

As someone above has already pointed out, there’s only one Upholland, and it’s not in anywhere else unless you want to call it Upholland, West Lancashire. It certainly isn’t in Wigan or Saint Helens. Wigan is in Manchester, Upholland is in Lancashire like it’s always been. We are Lancastrians in Upholland, not Mancs.

Upholland, nr, Wigan, Lancs. the day I was born, still is as far as I'm concerned.

James Hanson - For generations the postal address of UpHolland was UpHolland near Wigan, Lancashire.
For your information, Wigan still is in Lancashire. It is part of the County Palatine of Lancashire. Greater Manchester is NOT a county, nor is Merseyside. They are merely administrative areas within the County Palatine, upon which little empire builders have wrongly bestowed the name 'county'.
I suggest you study the work of Local Government Boundary Commission for England (1972).
You may also care to study Hansard. The question of these administrative areas within Lancashire has been raised in Parliament on more than one occasion, and has always been met with the same answer - they remain in the County Palatine of Lancashire.

Veronica, there's film, with apt music, of the seminary both inside and out on youtube - 'rum' cubicles, but splendid corridors of mellowed wood. George Carman QC had spent time (for want of better words) there.

Although it's not a million miles from Wigan., it isn't "near" to it. It's nearer to Skelmersdale, or Orrell. It's not in Ormskirk either.
I agree with James Hanson, Upholland is in Upholland.

John Walsh's Mate - much of what is now called Skelmersdale used to be UpHolland. The real Skelmersdale (Sandy Lane, Clayton St, etc) is actually 5 miles from UpHolland whereas Wigan is only 4 miles.
Prior to boundary reorganisation, UpHolland was always administered from Wigan, and until the 19th century, was part of Wigan parish, as was Dalton.
A further point to consider is the fact that in the 1960s, when the owner of Ashurst beacon decided to 'gift' the beacon, and the land surrounding it, they gifted it to Wigan Corporation, for the use of the people of Wigan, and the town's outlying districts.

John Walsh. Whats Skem got to do with anything. It was only a little village same as Upholland and it was a sight further from Upholland to Skem than from UpHolland to Wigan. Skem only became a town in the last forty odd years and Wigan and Upholland were connected years before that. Beats me why you dragged Orrell into it as well.

If you want to put it like that, 'administration', Wigan must really be part of Manchester, seeing as how it's administered from there. Wigan is in Manchester, making all Wigan people Mancs. Congratulations.
But we all know Wigan isn't really in Manchester, just like Upholland isn't in Wigan, it's in Upholland.

Hey, while we're on the subject, any Wigan people who were christened in a Wigan church, must have been christened in Liverpool, as all Wigan churches are administered from Liverpool. That means all Wiganers are scoutsers.

I'm happy enough to originate from Lowton, in Lowton, but near Warrington, in Cheshire.

so am i right in thinking the site of this baxters, became the site of Dingle Bells? The houses behind the boxes are still there.

If it wasn’t for our brave men and women , Upholland , like everywhere else , would now be part of the Motherland of Nazi Germany . Albert Spier spent a lot of the remaining years of his life in England , wonder what he would have built in Upholland , Ashurst beacon or Skem?

James Hanson, you are clearly not familiar with the historic County Palatine Of Lancashire, until 1974 what some people now call Greater Manchester, Merseyside and a huge chunk of the Lake District were administratively part of Lancashire. You do not need to look to hard anywhere round Wigan, "Greater Manchester", "Merseyside" or other places to find people who insist they are from Lancashire and have always been so.

Very true A Lc, I always put Lancs in any addresses I write. Thank you Philip, I have taken note of the Ytube Black Bull, my ancestry goes back to the 1600's with one Peter Catterall and family.

If it wasn’t for our brave men and women , Upholland , like everywhere else , would now be part of the Motherland of Nazi Germany . Albert Spier spent a lot of the remaining years of his life in England , wonder what he would have built in Upholland , Ashurst beacon or Skem?

"In correspondence by the Duchy of Lancaster in 1992 and 1996, it confirmed that the newly constituted councils such as Manchester and Merseyside did not affect the duchy and the county palatine of Lancashire or its boundaries, which remain the same as they were in the pre-1888 geographical county."
( Hansard - 2nd February 2015, Vol. 592)
Whether you live in Barrow in Furness or Widnes, you still reside in the County Palatine of Lancaster, no matter what your regional authority calls itself.

Jarvo, are you thinking of Church Street from which you would be somewhat looking easterly, to assist you to get your bearings -over the road from here is where the Lyric Cinema once was.

As far as I understand, the historic Duchy of Lancaster's 'Palatine of Lancashire' (which wasn't only in Lancashire) has been gradually sold off and is now less than 20% of what it was originally. The "County" of Lancashire was, and is, a totally different entity to the 'Palatine of Lancashire' .
The Duchy of Lancaster, nowadays, has more to contend with, like it's investments in companies like Brighthouse and some obscure Off-Licence franchising chain, both of which went bust, at their loss.
The days of old, when knights were bold, is long gone.
Anyway, ask yourself, "what is Lancashire" ? and what is a 'county'?
A county is a division, created for the purpose of administration and tax-collection. Anybody who doesn't pay into that county, isn't in that county.
Wigan hasn't been in Lancashire since the early 20th century. Used to be, but isn't anymore. Upholland WAS in Wigan Parish, but not anymore.
The only connection between Upholland and Wigan, nowadays, is the Royal Mail sorting office.

George (Hindley)

Cyril and Jarvo - Church St and Parliament St run more or less on a North South axis. Looking from this location to the church, you are looking SSE.
The Lyric Cinema was over 200 yards NNW of the location of this photo, opposite the junction of Lafford Lane.

George (Hindley) you are correct in saying that the Duchy Of Lancaster is a separate issue to the County Palatine. The Duchy refers in effect to property held in trust which provides income for the Queen so it can be in other places as well as Lancashire. The County Palatine refers to the ancient Dukedom of which the Queen is "Duke" or Count Palatine. I don't know where you get the idea that Wigan has not been in Lancashire since the early 20th C. Wigan was a County Borough until 1974 when local government re-organistion took place. Greater Manchester, Merseyside and Cumbria then emerged as administrative areas but the County Palatine as a Dukedom was unchanged. I must say that there is a great deal more than the post office connecting Up Holland with Wigan, Up Holland has always been geographically, socially and historically associated with Wigan, nothing can change that.

Al.C. I didn't say "the Duchy Of Lancaster is a separate issue to the County Palatine". Although it is, but it isn't.
I did say "The "County" of Lancashire was, and is, a totally different entity to the 'Palatine of Lancashire' ", which it was/is/will always be. In that case, 'the queen' doesn't come into it either. The queen is only a figurehead in the present tense.

Wigan hasn't been in Lancashire since it's council joined with Pemberton UDC, in 1906 (?), to become a County Borough, therefore becoming independent of Lancashire control. Out of Lancashire, you could say. (Lancashire being a 'county' and an 'administration area')

The local government re-organisation took place from the early 1950's and concluded in 1972.
Wigan county borough was abolished and the Metropolitan County of Greater Manchester was created out of many local authorities over a large area. This was sub-divided into lesser local authorities, one of which became the Wigan Metropolitan Borough we know now.
All is administrative. All is parliamentary. All is a result of the English civil war and the toppling of the monarchy.
But, let's forget 'government', 'administration', 'church', 'local authority' and 'letters'.
Upholland is not in Wigan. Neither is Hindley or Ince and I live in one, but not the other.

I didn't mention Post Office. I said "The only connection between Upholland and Wigan, nowadays, is the Royal Mail sorting office." and I stand by that.

Anthony (up there on 25th June), did you know that Ashurst Beacon is government owned and is now part of West Lancashire Council managed "Beacon Park".
With regard to 'owning' things, did you know that Wigan Council 'own' Wigan and Leigh College in New Delhi, India? Do you reckon Wigan is 'in' New Delhi? or is it that New Delhi is 'in Wigan'?
Upholland is far closer to Skelmersdale than it is to Wigan.
It's cotiguous to Skelmersdale, but not 'in' it. Neither is it 'in Wigan'.

Baxters also had a mobile shop used in the area for selling to remote areas.

There is a lady in her 60s who now lives on Orrell Road, Orrell with her elderly mother. They are surving members of the Baxter family who ran the village store until it closed. I don't know their Christian names, I was told a few years ago by a third party.

Never mind Baxter’s shop, I’m enjoying the argument about where Upholland is lol. It was always in Upholland when we lived there.

In the early seventies many changes were made in respect of administrative boundaries. In 1969 all of the County Borough Police Forces were amalgamated into the Lancashire Constabulary.

I am correct to say that this is late morning. The is sun very high. An afternoon shot would show the street in total shade.

One member of the Baxter family left the retail grocery trade and did very well for herself in the TV industry, as the editor of Blue Peter, for 23 years.
She is now retired and has a little dog which she takes for walks. She probably hasn't been to Upholland. Or Wigan.

"Get down Shep"

Very interesting information on the Baxter family. I grew up in Upholland and every Friday morning Lawrence Baxter would come to our house, go through a grocery list with my mum and the order would be delivered on Friday afternoon. He would also show customers new items in store. I still have the travel rug mum bought back then! A very early version of Ocado then!

I’ve read, with some interest, the comments regarding this picture and I’m really flattered that so many people have taken an interest.

The building in the photograph is Baxter’s Stores I was led to believe it was in the early 1920s but I wouldn’t swear to that. It was designed on the back of an envelope by my Great Grandfather, James, or so the family legend had it. James had twelve children ten boys and two girls. There is a picture of them all assembled in the grounds of Brooklands, the house James owned further up Parliament Street, also on this site https://www.wiganworld.co.uk/album/photo.php?opt=6&id=22648&gallery=Baxter+Family+UpHolland&offset=0

Of the family Sidney, Stanley, Gerald, Maurice and Ellen all worked in the shop. Clive and Arnold were killed on the same day, January 25th 1915, Osmund died of wounds received in WWI. Leslie became a farmer and lived in the farm house on the right as you go up Higher Lane. Victor went to Australia (I think) Lily married William Bolton and lived at Abbey Lakes there is a picture of their wedding also taken at Brooklands here https://redrosecollections.lancashire.gov.uk/view-item?i=224500&WINID=1610959636738

Norman married Constance and lived at Vicarage Corner behind the monument.

Baxter’s Stores closed in the late fifties after Maurice died and the business was restarted by his sons, Arnold and Lawrence, as Baxter Brothers, opening a shop on the corner of Parliament Street. They opened a second shop opposite the Labour Club in Holland Moor around 1958.

The mobile shop that someone remembers was an old converted RAF ambulance that was kitted out with shelves; think Sam Waldron in Postman Pat. This vehicle had to be started with either a starting handle or a ‘little push’. Many mornings my brother and I would push the thing down Church Street from Stoneleigh, where we lived, to get it started.

The elderly ladies who are mentioned still living on Orrell Rd are Arnold’s widow and her daughter; they have moved.

Reg, Maurice’s other son, ran the TV electrical appliances shop also on Parliament Street.

Marian, the only daughter, married Alan Picken and lived near Birmingham.

For the record I always write Up Holland as two words and put Nr Wigan when writing an address.

Best wishes to everyone.

When I first found this through Google I got quite a shock. My father was Albert Baxter and for a moment I thought that he and his twin Arthur had an older brother they never mentioned. All cleared up now.

The ladies living on Orrell Rd were Arnold's wife Doreen and their daughter Linda.

I lived in up Holland 1958 to 1980s . I remember Baxter’s stores well , traditional grocers , family run . I remember Linda and her parents.

I lived in up Holland 1958 to 1980s . I remember Baxter’s stores well , traditional grocers , family run . I remember Linda and her parents.