Photo: John Brown
Item #: 12254
I have seen this photo before. It ain't Wigan.
IT HAS A LOOK OF PEMBERTON TO ME ?
Looks like the celebrations surrounding the last time Malc Holland bought a round.
It looks like the top of Market Street, looking towards the top of Library Street. The doorway on the left, is the old pub, don't know the name.
Hey Bernard I think you may be right? Just checked the photo against others taken in the same area and the hanging lamp and the arched doorway leading to the Fleece Hotel match up.
I'll check on the Eastman name in the directory.
I agree with the top of Mrket St/Market Place. What was Jacksons Corner on the left, & straight across from Market St, the "Cross Keys" pub (now Moon Under Water) with Library St. to the right right of the pub.
I don't think that trams ever went up scholes, & the lines there would be the route to Martland Mill,Horton St. terminus
Just one more thing recognisable, the square lamp on the left, is the "Fleece Hotel" sign, opposite what was once Martland Mill bus stop....Picture taken from the Crofters side of Hallgate
Ron Hunt is right this is never anywhere in Wigan, Trams never ran in Scholes or Market st, I am a good age so i know it definetly is not Wigan, This looks a more affluent place than Wigan at the time this picture would have been taken, Believe you me the well dressed people in the picture did not live in Scholes, also the building in the far background does not fit in at all with any area of Wigan town centre,
Never Market St in the memory of man, Market St did not bend to the left as shown in picture, definetly not Scholes judging by how the people are dressed, also what looks like higher class of shops than would be found in Wigan at this time, Trams never ran in Scholes, I know all the history of Scholes having lived here 70 yrs,
It is 100% Market street. Check out the old photos I have put on the site of Market street. On a couple of them it clearly shows the Fleece Hotel entrance and the lamp. There the same as this photo.
Market Street without a doubt, Ron.
For the information of Bob B - Trams ran both on Market St and Scholes. The Martland Mill tram commenced its journey in Market St (tramlines and gantries can clearly be seen on other old Market St photos), and trams ran up Scholes and Whelley on the Aspull route.
I have an old map which clearly indicates (and identifies) both routes, and also a timetable showing the journey times for both routes.
It is Market Street, which was confirmed in the following issue of Past Forward. The occasion was to dispel prejudices about the motor car. General Booth, head of the Salvation Army is seated in the back seat of the Darracq, a popular French-made car of the period. In August 1906 he set off on a 'Pilgrimage by Petrol', stopping to preach as he travelled through various towns.
(Ref: Past Forward, Issue 52, July to November 2009).
Bob B, if you care to go & stand at the top of Hallgate on the old "Crofters" corner. I think you'll see that same window in the "Moon Under Water" which appears in the picture above ;o)
I can just picture Micky Dalton in the Fleece doorway now, where I used to see him 50/60 years ago, while I waited for the bus home to Evan House Farm,via Martland Mill
I have just seen a video on youtube which is called "Living Wigan (1902)" which shows a steam tram at the top of Market Street in 1902 and after comparing the video against the picture, in my opinion that picture is NOT of the top of Market Street.
APLS - That might be because the film clip in question is not of Market St - it is in fact of Market Place, looking towards Standishgate; around the corner from where the photo was taken.
Definately Market St
I think the picture is actually of Liverpool near to Lime Street Railway Station.
Yep, gotta agree with Dave and the link evidence.
Wigan it is, look at the arched doorway under the square lamp.
It's been fun. ;)
Mick is right about the trams. Ron Hunt's photo 10172(early 1900's)in album section-Places, shows tram lines in front of King Edward lodging house, which was just below Scholes crossing.
Never Wigan, Take a close look how the people are dressed, This is definetly a more upper crust society when and where this picture would have been taken, I would even say it is not any northern town, Children wearing boaters NOT in Wigan at this or any other time. As for the person saying trams ran up Scholes must be living in cuckoo land as there is no history anywhere about this , Lived in Scholes for many a long year before the start of WW2, in all this time there was not a tram to be seen, only tram running from 1930s was the one that went to Platt Bridge.
This as been more fun reading all the comments than looking at the photo thanks folks, comments like "it aint Wigan" "never Market st int memory of man" I love it, don't we just love sticking our knecks out. If you look in PLACES click on Market sreet Ron Hunts photo item 1373 Eastmans Limited butchers appears in both photos. Simples
Do I detect a troll in Barry Jo?
On the offchance he isn't a timewaster, I refer him to 'The Tramways Of Wigan' by E.K. Stretch, available at all local libraries. He may find Chapter 6 particularly enlightening, as it concentrates on work carried out in the early 1920s, on the tram line which he says never existed. Much of this chapter is based on Transport Committee minutes, and other contemporary documents.
Mick I will tell you once again that NO trams ever ran up Scholes, I suggest you have another look at so called maps but before you do so i suggest you put them the right way up, also i suggest a visit to specsavers, I have just spoken to a 90 year old woman who has lived in Scholes all her life and she says no trams ever ran up Scholes in her lifetime, Ps, You may be the Troll.
There were trams running up Scholes. I have a map 1908 showing the routes of the tram lines in Wigan. The lines came from Rodney street. It split near Millgate and continued up Scholes If anyone thinks different they are welcome to come and look at the map.
Ron Hunt, you may have maps but that does not mean any trams ever ran in Scholes, tons of plans and printed information never implemented, The chap who says trams never ran in scholes after he had information off a 90 year old woman is right, this is the person to believe, Word of mouth is better than anything aincient printed on paper, LIved in Scholes myself for 75 years in all this time no mention of any trams in scholes was ever mentioned,my parents used to tell me all the history of the area,They were both well educated teachers with vast knowledge, If trams ran in scholes believe you me i would have known about it,
See 'Wigan Almanac for 20 December 1901' as published on this site where it reads: 'Inspection and Opening of the Scholes Electric Tramway'.
The Almanacs are excellent help as entries can be checked in the local newspapers of the time for a report on the subject.
I believed that there weren't any trams in Scholes!
Until I saw This:
April 11. - Wigan Borough Quarter Sessions: No Prisoners for Trial. - Opening of the Wigan Subscription Bowling Green. - Opening of the new Tramways to Aspull and Upholland.</quote>
13 years before your 90 year old woman was born!!
Quote "As for the person saying trams ran up Scholes he must be living in cuckoo land"
Cuckoo, Cuckoo, Cuckoo,<g>
All you unbelievers..........Check this out. December 20th
never Scholes, not bothered where trams went, if it is a Wigan pic the only place it could be, as other have said it was taken in Market street looking right from the Crofters pub
Market street looking up to Market Place
I think it is now been 100% agreed that this photo is Market Street.
Ron Hunt,Why is it so difficult for you to make your mind up, You said previously that anyone who said trams ran up Scholes is living in cuckoo land, cuckoo, cuckoo, Go and get your birdie suit on, You say one thing then the opposite, I am sure you are in the cuckoo family, You want a foot in both camps.
Harry J, Before you open your mouth I suggest you read the comments. I NEVER SAID THAT 'PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT TRAMS RAN UP SCHOLES ARE LIVING IN CUCKOO LAND'.In my posting, I was quoting Barry Jo who said it in one of his postings (If you took time to read the postings before posting comments you would see I wrote "Quote") In my posting I was insinuating that as I know that trams ran up Scholes. I must be living in Cuckoo land.
I suggest you read the comments again.
Harry J. Ref my last posting. Here is the posting by Barry Jo and the quote:-
Comments by Barry Jo, 23rd October 2009
Never Wigan, Take a close look how the people are dressed, This is definetly a more upper crust society when and where this picture would have been taken, I would even say it is not any northern town, Children wearing boaters NOT in Wigan at this or any other time.
As for the person saying trams ran up Scholes he must be living in cuckoo land as there is no history anywhere about this ,
Lived in Scholes for many a long year before the start of WW2, in all this time there was not a tram to be seen, only tram running from 1930s was the one that went to Platt Bridge.
Still awaiting a reply from Harry J.
The silence is deafening........
I do not know what you are all going on about this is definetly Liverpool, this was one of the stops Booth made, He never called at Wigan on his tour through Britain whilst he was heading up north, These people should read the savation army history not second guess,
Anne M...Unless you have a "Fleece Hotel", of Market St Wigan, in Liverpool....You may as well carry on looking for fairies on Albert Dock..hehe..;o)
Art Culshaw, You must have gone to specsavers for EXTRA STRENGTH glasses to be able to say thats the Fleece Hotel, where on the photograph does it say Fleece Hotel, There was never a butchers in Market Street called Eastmans, The only butchers in Market St ever was Kings, Also there are no buildings in Wigan like the one shown in the background, Market street did not go round the bend like some i could mention, You have as much idea of Wigan as a month old stray cat.
Perhaps you could look at this photo, which includes tha "Crofters Pub" at the top of Hallgate &part way down on the right, the bottom entrance to Commercial Yard.
You maqy even detect Eastmans Butchers & Wigan Drug Company which was next door to the "Fleece" (the one with the big square lamp over the door)
Anne M have you heard the saying 'It is Better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it"
Have you actually looked at the photos of Market Street in the Album and compared them with this photo??? The Lamp, The Arched Doorway, Eastmans Butchers. Are you saying that there is an exact clone of Market Street Wigan in Liverpool with all the same features and the same shop names?
Hey Art have you ever got to the stage when whatever conclusive proof you have, there are still some people who will argue the toss <g>
Hey Art have you ever got to the stage when whatever conclusive proof you have, there are still some people who will argue the toss <g>
Brian, sorry I spoke!
Barry Jo, Alf T, Harry J, Anne M,
Is there anybody there????? Or are your mouths full of Humble Pie<g>
Coming to this argument late in the day, but I had to respond to Anne M's ill judged (and rather offensive) comments.
At the time this photo was taken, there WAS a butchers by the name of Eastman's in Market St. They were located at 11 Market Street, next door but one to the Fleece, which was number 7. Eastman's also had premises at 133 Scholes at this time.
A quick look at any of Kelly's Trade Directories (Wigan) for the period between 1900 and 1910, will confirm this.
That is the Fleece Hotel, Market Steet Wigan. The trams did run down there and the tracks remained in the road until at least the 19060's. My grandfather (Frank Wright Snr) was landlord at the Fleece in the 1960's and the entrance from Market Street is just as I remeber it. Opposite was the UCP retaurant (later Bluto's) the butchers shop shown next door became a rubber wear shop (before all the fetish stuff) in the 60's. Now all gone and replaced by a faceless shopping centre.
Hello Ian, I used to drink in the Fleece when your your grandfather Frank was the landlord, there was an entrance from Marketplace as well. Can't think of Frank's wife name although I can picture them both.
Believe you me after studying this photo all those who say this is Wigan are wrong, never in the history of mankind did Market Street bend like is shown on here, also what are the very large buildings in the background, like nothing in Wigan either now or in the past, The person who says this is Liverpool is probably the more correct,
Harry D - you would do well to note Eric and Carol Littler's comments above.
The Fleece pub has been positively identified, along with documentary evidence to the fact that there was a butchers called Eastman's next door but one to it.
Market St did not bend - the roadway continues in a more or less straight line, but the street opened into a space on the left in Market Place, giving the illusion of a bend.
The 'very large buildings' you remark on in the background are now The Moon Under Water, and what used to be the Midland bank, on the corner of Library St. Although the frontage of The Moon Under Water has changed somewhat, the large arched doorway on the right hand side of the building is still clearly identifiable, as is the building line on Library St.
It is also a matter of record that General Booth visited Wigan on August 11th 1906, on his motor tour of England, and travelled along a route through the town that included Market St.
History books never mention General Booth visiting Wigan ,So this is never Wigan .
If thats Wigan i will eat all that meat in the butchers window for my dinner , Wigan never ever , Wiganers young and old wearing boaters , most could not even afford to buy a flat cap ,