For Aitch 436 - Local characters in the INCE area

for aitch (436)

Morning aitch - by the sound of things - you enjoyed yourself last night - then repeat that again, this evening.

Aitch, I'm communicating with RNICKY re Jack Holden.

Do you recall the guy who did his dance? and what was the name of a drummer - I played piano with him in the Belle Greene - Joe & Nellie had the pub at the time - Bob was his first name - he would twirl the sticks through his fingers - throw them up in the air and catch them on the way down - always sat there, shirt wide open, displaying a great big hairy chest. Then he could do a drum solo Gene Croupier style(spelling is inncorrect).

Then character who used to drink in the Engine "Thingin", he along with my Dad and some others were caught in the afternoon drinking (during closed hours).
They were all went to court - the guy in question was asked by the judge - Mr X since you are not employed (and from records) never have worked - and with such a large family - how do you intend to pay the fine - Mr. X's reply - Sir I run a few arrands for the men in the pubs and I could pay 2 shillings a week - the Judge replied - Mr X, run a few more and make it 5 shillings.
This was reported in the Wigan Observer at the time.
Thats all for now - anybody out there who can add to the charcaters - no, this is in no way, "putting them down" every place has its characters, they bring in their own qualities and life style - god bless them all.

Don't recall the chap who did a dance but the drummer I think you mean would be Bob Walls, he lived in the Grove at one time I think, can remember him having a motorbike a Harley Davidson god knows where he got it from it was massive. don't recall the court case but was caught myself after time but got away with it because they couldn't prove any beer was mine has I was playing pool when they burst in but that was in the old Imperial, Don Thompson and Rita had the Engine when I frequented the place and later on there was Derek who seemed like a nice boy ,but cant remember his surname. Another name I recall was Peter Hickey, he was the singer when he started nobody could stop him, last I heard he was still alive but living in Ashton.

i remember mr hickey would always see him drunk singing pop goes the weasel we use to follow him round asking him to sing for us mi mam says there was a bloke that use to do the sand dance in the pubs i think she said his surname was aldred

That was little Jackie Aldred he used to live in the viaducts, he was a rag and bone man, he died a few years ago one week short of his 100th birthday, he lived a couple of doors from me when he died, his 2 daughters Ethel and Joyce are still living Ethel in Ince and Joyce in Hindley neither ever married.

Thanks lads for your replies - yes I recall now the names your mentioned, and yes Jackie did the sand dance & the dying swan -

Sulivan was the character in court.

I also recall that Sullivan sat in front of the fire (Walmsley Arms) Ince Bar - winter time - with a towel around his shoulder - waiting for a large snowball, on his head, to melt.
He won his bet - each man there had said they would buy him a pint, if he did it. The money was handed over behind the bar before he sat there - the landords wife saying - he's not sitting there like that - she put a towel - wait for it - under the stool - then told Sullivan he could sit down.
There was more than one character in the pub on that day. I and about 3 or 4 others were there.

Now I'll tell you another true story - here in Wexford, Ireland.

A german was up in court having been caught with drugs. The judge asked if anyone in court could speak German - a man stood up and said "Me your honour" the judge invited him down and said - please ask the man in the dock to confirm his name - so the good samaritan went over and said,
"Vot ist yo nam"
Before any reply could be uttered from the man in the dock.The judge immediatley asked the samaritan if he - the samaritan - had some money with him, & if so - how much - the samaritan replied 37 euro - the Judge thanked him - then said you are find 37 euro for contempt of court then directed the police to take the money, issue a receipt and escort the man from the court.

I cant recall that little Jackie was a rag & bone man - a Johnnie Rutter did that around Chatham St, 1940/50.

A Mr. Bibby was the "Knocker up" and the "Lamp Lighter". I and some lads would get up really early (sometimes) so that we could go with him - and he would let us use the long cane with bristles on the end.
He lived in Chatham St.

Aitch.
Bob Walls is 100% right. The Harley Davidson cam from a chap in Chatham St. Cant recall his name - he was a few years older than me - I had a Norton 650 twin cylinder - wow.
It didnt have a kick start - you had to clutch, put it into gear, and a run/jump start, and by the way it was a rust bucket. I bought it from the travellers who lived in Smiths field off Careless Lane - I bought it for £2/5 pounds - for me it was fantastic. One of my friends then bought a half share. It finished its life back with the travellers - after Ralf (nameless) ran it into the orchard wall at the corner of Pennington Lane/West St.

Do any of you Incers remember Smiths Dairies. When the Milk Marketing Board bought them out Bill & Margaret Smith went to S. Africa to introduce long life milk there. Pat Smith also went.

Aitch,
Do you remember little Tommy Connor ? lived on Ince Green Lane with his sister Mary Culshaw,next door to Claude Robert's butcher's shop. Always hung around St William's Club - poor chap was handicapped, but as kids he would chase us threatening to "tell the bobbies"

I started work at Smith dairies a round with a chap named Teddy Bracegirdle(there's a name to conjure with). I still am a friend of Dick Bibby who lived in Chatham street, His dad Tommy was the knocker up I think you are on about, he used to love playing 5s and 3s in the old bush which was the pub we all went in, I very much remember Sunday afternoons, if you didn't get in there for just after 12 and get your name on the board for a game of dominoes you had had it. As regards motor bikes I bought one in July 1963 on a Saturday from Millers across from moat house street, a Royal Enfield 250 red and chrome, by Tuesday I was in Wigan infirmary with my right leg in plaster off work for 6 months the bike back to Millers because i could not afford to pay for it and still had to pay half, a grand total of £56.10shillings

aitch
I'm about to go to bed - enjoyed mi wine & the film & mi dogs. Just taken them for a walk.
Ask DICKY BIBBY about Jackie Houghton -
we lived opposite each other - virtually -Dicky must be in his 70's given that I'm 67. He would be around the same age as my sister Euince.
Yes, Dickies father was the knocker up and the lamp lighter.

Also ask Dickie about Norman Sutcliffe - he could really sing, and there was another connection? - ask him about Hughes & Fairhurst & Heatons &Hitchensons & Bushells & Leatherbarrows & Jones & Ashalls & Aspinall's & Simm's, Forshaws & all the other "feckers" who lived in Chatham St.
And tell him
Jackie never ever forgot his roots.
Its true I did OK but I know where I came from - like my wifes memories - they can never be errased - nothing to gain - and nothing to hide.
But looking at Whelans tributes JJB - I'm not too sure I SHOULD GO ANY FURTHER. Otherwise you "feckers" would lynch me.

Check the Irish phone directory - HOUGHTON MANAGEMENT SERVICES have been listed for over 25 years - enough said.

HRH only got there because her forefathers took the fecking heads of some poor b******d's who didnt have enough cash in LLYODS TRUSTEES SAVINGS BANK, to raise an army.

Have pity on me - next week England play Ireland at Croke Park, Dublin - the Irish remember that because the Black & Tans drove thru the gates and shot players on the field - watch next weeks match - 6 Nations - playing GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.
This is historic in Irish terms.

The Irish are not anti English - far from it - its the banter - its the craick - they welcome you with open arms and if you really want a good day out (daytime & nigh time all rolled into one then come Wexford) - October 2007 - Opera Festival -forget the Opera its a great big P**S up 24 hours a day and for 12 days and its International, Yanks - Germans - Italy - France - Spain - Sweeds - Aussies - oh & the Brits.
George Melley comes here every year - he sings in the pubs - and they dont charge a penny - many International stars appear here dressed in their BEST and nobody give a s**t as they say in golf - its par for for the course.
Guinness sponsor the entire event and during this period - they hold the Swinging Pubs Competition. All the pubs (and believe you me there are many) participate - pubs are officially open till 2 am and if you can keep the pace they dont close.

Good morning - for today - I work.

My Dear Mother told me a story about a relative of hers who was caught shoplifting.
He thought It was a big joke and was a bit of a smarty ,so he thought,when the Magistrate sentenced him to 6 months Jail he told the Magistrate ,"I can do that standing on my head"The Magistrate Replied"make It 12Months do 6 Months standing on your feet".

Just outa bed - well last 30 minutes - did you see the TIME I posted the above.
One bottle of wine & I'm anybodies - 2 bottles of wine and I'm everybodies.

Did I say I was going to work today - I did - stupid & thick thats what I am - there is no way. And what crap I spewed out at that time of the day - and so aitch I shall use the excuse that I was celebrating your birthday -

What a day this is turning out to be - couldnt find mi baccy pouch - some ejut (idiot) had put it in mi back pocket.

Roll on tomorrow.

To one & all - have a nice day.

Jacko, I remember Norman Sutcliffe well was he not related to Dicky, I am not too sure myself but may see Dicky in Morrisons on wednesday, will try him wih a few of the names, he still lives up Belle Green lane in a flat just off Kendal road.Oh and what is the name of that wine you were partaking of, could try some of that myself, if it gets you in that state.

I CAN REMEMBER LITTLE JACK ALDRED,HE LIVED IN THE SAME STREET AS I DID ( PINEWOOD CRES,)WE ONLY MOVED THERE ABOUT 1966,SO I THINK JACK WOULD HAVE RETIRED FROM WHATEVER HE DID AT THAT TIME, A PROPER LITTLE CHARACTER
AS FOR TOMMY CONNOR I CAN RECALL THE NAME BUT CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME PUT A FACE TO IT

Aitch:
I'm not too long back from the pub.
After this mornings thread I went back to bed - but couldnt settle - the 2 fecking dogs were hopping mad - I had promised one of them, they could sleep in the middle - thats where I always sleep -with one on each side - jaysus - I mustve been drunk when I said that.
What about sleeping with the dogs - naaa - about telling one they could sleep in the middle - a tell you - a dont fecking know what was in that red wine - but we sent it for forensics - al give yu the name whenever the test reults come back.

Your right about Norman - he was a nephew of Dickie. If you do see Dickie pass on my fondest regards (if he can remember me)

Well I didnt go to work today - and as for the Pub - thats true - but it was for lunch only with 2 sons - and the only drink on the table was water - followed by coffee.

On the subject of drink - try one part whiskey & two parts ginger wine this is a very pleasing drink.
Is that any good for a hang over - naaaa
I usuall get drunk on that - "joe king".
Too much of that drink an the only thing yul hang over is yur yed - in lavvy bowl - but make fecking sure nobody else is using it at the same time.

Have nice evening & talk with you later.

Kenny,
Little Tommy Connor used to stand at the top of Patricroft Road outside our house wearing a grey tweed jacket, matching flat cap collar & tie. Always claimed he was "a bobby".

Used to help out at St Williams Club doing little odd jobs. Shame was he was clearly "mentally" handicapped,(I know its not the politically correct name but can't think the proper phrase) and used to go Hydelle Lodge Adult Centre in Hindley (behind the old Woolworths)

He lived with his sister Mary Culshaw that used to live next to the Butchers in Ince Green Lane (opposite end to our row). I think Mary (who only passed away a couple of years ago) moved into the middle of the row of houses.

jacko my mam says do you have a step sister called vi gibson if its the one did she move to america

MECCY.

Yes, but Vi was a half sister - there were 5 Gibson children - Jimmy - Vi - George - Dorothy - Joyce who died in infancy.
Mams first husband died and when she married my dad (who up to that, dad had never married and as far as we all know there werent any children????????) they then had two more children - Eunice & me, so we all have the same mother.
In truth I grew up and always talked about them as "full" brothers & sisters.

Vi went to the USA in 1945 - still there - her husband died last year - she has 3 adult children & 7 grandchildren.

Jimmy died also last year. George died around 12 year ago.

Dorothy lives in Yorkshire, Eunice & I being from the Houghton side.

In truth I didnt know Vi - she went away when I was a kid - she came back for the 1st time when I was a teenager - we came from a different era - I didnt know who she would be talking about no more than she would know my friends.
She made it plain she objected to me having a drink & smoking, so that didnt go down too well.

Thanks MECCY - God Bless.

i knew jimmy well mate with his son david

Jacko, a very good old Irish friend of mine old Tommy Dunne used to tell me and his son young Tommy that the only good thing that you put with a whiskey is another one, and that is a bit of Irish philosophy that I have kept up with

AITCH.

Now how did an Irish Man get over there - is he on the run - no - he was kicked out of dear ould ireland. There's a photo of Tommy Dunne in all the PUBS in Ireland - they say he couldnt tell his head from his a**e, and thats why he always put one whiskey with another. By the way - some of the posters here say that he never paid for his drinks - dont say I didnt warn you.

hi Jacko, just been reading this thread and if i'm on the right person, your nephew dave is one of my husbands best mates, and his mum is really good friends with my nanna (Jack's wife)Can't wait to ask Dave all about you tomorrow!!
Goodnight God Bless X

Jacko you are wrong there, Tommy and his wife Kathleen were 2 of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. And their sons were the salt of the earth, 2 are dead but the other 3 are still alive and doing very well, although one is in Aussie, he went of his own accord, And Peter if you are on this site at any time you know I loved your mum and dad dearly, and carry on fishing old son.

AITCH:
Ref: Tommy Dunne (my reply 19th Feb) I now know I could delete it - but I wont - its my mistake - its my own fault - and I'm now deeply sorry it was posted. Why have I left it?
We all learn from our mistakes - and so we should - I was fooling around (smarty arse and that sort of thing) little did I know or realise that the stupidity of my own actions would or could be the cause of offence - when NO offence was ever intended.

Sorry - sincere apologies - never ever was any offence intended either to Tommy's family and of course to you.
I read your thread in the context of the PRESENT and not of the PAST.
My inappropriate reply was also given as PRESENT & not the PAST.

My apologies to anyone who may have read my thread - and of course knew or was aware of the LATE TOMMY DUNNE (RIP).
I just didnt know.

Aitch - I know you will at some stage read this - sorry again

MECCY & RNICKY:

I think we have the wrong Jimmy.
My brother Jimmy - the eldest son - spent most of his life in the Royal Navy. Its true him & his wife had a child - but that child was a DAUGHTER.

This thread was edited.
It has just dawned on me - the Jim Gibson I believe you are thinking of would have been my "nephew" he was a year younger than me - he was also the eldest son of George - Jim was one of 3 sons - Jim, Derek & Brian. We grew more like cousin's and to some extent - as brothers. As kids I slept at their house many nights. Four lads in the same bed - two at the top and two at the bottom.
Jim (nephew) died in 2001 - the same week as my wife (but a few days later) thats why I didnt go to his funeral.

If we are talking about the same Jim - yes I now recall his son - David.
Jim used to play rugby for Widness.
Derek played for Lancashire schoolboys but never continued on when he left school.
When Jim (nephew) and were growing up - we used to go the "Emp" on friday nights - yes I introduced Jim to Joan at the Emp. They married and their daughter (first child is 12 months older than my first child.
At their wedding, my late wife, who didnt drink, was given a glass of sherry, somebody joked that we should call our first daughter "sherry" - later we did but spelled as "Sherrie" and pronounced sherry.
When Davids grandparents were alive they visited us in Ireland - every year - after George died - Veronica used to come by herself. Then she passed on.
The last time I would have seen David would have been at his Grandad George's funeral. I didnt go to Vron's funeral - my wife was having her own problems.
By the way - Brian was the artist - he allowed me to select a painting from his collection (after his dad's funeral) that picture was then framed when we got back to Ireland - that picture still hangs in my sitting room - and one of my sons has laid claim to it - but he will have to wait, heaven knows, for how long.

Jacko, on behalf of the Dunne family and myself your apology is gratefully accepted, I know you didn't mean anything by them. I would have thought you would have known old Tommy he was a hard working and it must be said, a hard drinking man, spent a lot of time round here, they lived in a council house on the Petticoat lane estate, all worked in the building trade,

AITCH:
Thanks

IT'S ONLY IN THE LAST COUPLE OF POSTINGS THAT I REALISED WHICH DUNNE'S EVERYBODY WAS ON ABOUT,THEY LIVED IN DERWENT AVE,AND THE YOUNGEST OF THE FAMILY WAS JIMMY (I'M PRETTY SURE OF THAT)HE WILL BE 52ish NOW I USED TO GO TO SCHOOL AND KNOCK ABOUT WITH HIM LATER WHEN WE LEFT,HE NOW LIVES IN HINDLEY

JOHNNY7
I STILL CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME PICTURE TOMMY,THANKS FOR THE INFO,I'LL JUST HAVE TO KEEP ON BANGING ME YED AGENT WAR
I'M SURE IT WILL REGISTER SOMETIME

AITCH:

Do I remember Smith Daires.
Could I ever forget it - back in the late 40's and into the early 50's I started out making my own money - well me and a few lads with the same idea.

At the back end (facing Careless Lane)of the dairy there was a brick wall with broken glass on top -

We had a rope with a hook on it, thats what we used to get onto the wall. The empty milk bottles were stored there - we didnt have to climb down on the inside - youve guessed it - we could reach down and get the empty bottles - yes you got a 1d in those days when you took them back to the shop - or - used them as payment to get into the "Bug" cinema - what the hell was the name of that place?

We never took too many - why spoil a good thing - it was money that was always there - providing you werent greedy.
Come to think of it - I may have received my training with Dickie B, but then it could have been somebody else?

PS Who do I owe the money to - The Milk Maketing Board? will they accept Euros?
On the other hand if you give them my email address they can contact me direct, its:
youllnevergetitback@sowhat.eire


There was a Keith Mitchenson who lived in one of the houses - he & I went to school - to live in one of those - his father must have worked at the dairy?

Jacko, the name of the bug was the Doric, the building is still standing, its some sort of warehouse I think, brings back loads of memories that did, there were times when we couldn't afford to go in so we would sit at the back near to the old pub the Horse shoe, and listen to the pictures, by that I mean the Saturday matinee. Did you know the dairy started life out as a brewery, could have done with working there then.

Aitch:
Remember owd Bill just pass the railway crossing on your way up Belle Greene Lane, he used to stack pop bottles just inside the door. yep youve guessed it.

Thanks for "The Doric" it sounds so posh and out of place - the "bug" was for the low life who frequented that place - and I was never out of it.

No - thats the first time I heard it started life as a brewery.

Yeah I remember the Horse Shoe (now he does - pretending as though he had never forgotten - thick stupid fecker so he is, must be taking after his mothers side) it stood on that piece of land between the Walmsley Arms & Belle Green Lane - thanks for another memory.

jacko, The brewery was the Lawrence brewery it was between the co.op and the Belle green, and another useless piece of information, looking through the Ince directory the bug was originally called the Ince Picture House

AITCH:

Thanks - I'll make a record of that - by the way - does it say when the placed first opened?

Do you recall them giving - apples or oranges + a comic when going into the SAT MAT's?

Can you recall that the front rows - maybe 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 - they were all benches & not seats - then at some stage and only on the back row - they introduced double seating?

AITCH:

Another character:

There was a chemist somwhere around Ince - Darlington St? I'm really not sure.

What I now recall was that whenever you wnet into his chemist shop seeking something - he didnt have to dispense.
If he didnt have it in stock - he always replied "Come tomorrow". I also seem to recal that the people gave him the name of "Come tomorrow Jack"? again I'm not really to sure - can you throw any light on this?

Jacko, I do recall the first 3 or 4 rows were all benches and the([usherette] was a very large man he would take you down the right hand side stick you on the end and tell every one else to push up, the poor kid on the other end would usually finish up on the floor crying. As regards Jack come tomorrows that was no myth, his chemists shop, if that is what it was, was on the corner just below where the Crispin is now, if you went for a prescription, you could guarantee he would tell you to come tomorrow for it, and if he had never heard of it he would get it, god help the youngsters now they will never know characters the way we did

Here is one for a few of the older ones, does any one remember Rayner park in Hindley Danes Avenue, we used to go to there before we went to the pictures every sat, fishing for Loach, people tell me I'm hallucinating, but we did catch them fish in there, they were only small but were some sort of catfish with the whiskers or barbels, call them what you will, I do recall they were only about 3 inches long, but we would catch them and take them with us in jars to the pictures, the Palace the Castle the Rex later to be renamed the Monaco,

aitch you can still catch Stone Loach in that brook. I've lived in Danes Ave for nearly 40yrs.

Jack come tomorrow wasnt on the corner of the street.On the corner was Joe Speakman a clogger then a house then Jack.Went to see Jack many times for my grand parents.

AITCH:

Thanks fot that.

As I seem to recall, there were 2 "cloggers" in Belle Green Lane.

One was located at the top of Chatham St,
cant remember his name - but I have fons memories of sitting up close to his fire which was behind the counter - waiting for hime to put new irons on my cloggs.
I thnk he lived somewhere down Ince Green Lane? - bit I'm not sure.

The other one was located across from the Bush (pub)- As I do recall, he lived on the premises - cant recall his name - and maybe he had a son? much older than me - .
No offence - but he was more business like, than the first - but didnt across as being a "warmer" person.

Any cluses as to their identity?

The only one I can think of Jacko is Harold Melling, who if you look on the Ince directory for 1925 is named as being an iron turner which could put him in the clogging business, with an address across from the Bush. I remember a Harold Melling who had a shoe shop on Ince bar up till a few years ago, my wife went in there for years until it closed it was run by his wife at the finish, as regards any other near Chatham street non springs to mind but there will be some one with the info you need

aitch mi mam says he had a cloggers in ince green lane where the chemist is now there was a row of houses then a chippy in the middle is that right

Your mam is right meccy, there was a chippy and across the road I can recall Shaw's shop on the end of the row where Possi's butchers shop was before they moved into the old Morton's How is your mam, not seen her in Morrisons for a few weeks. Do you not remember me I was in Highfield ward when your dad was in nearly 6 years ago, he was in the bed opposite me ,I was waiting to be transferred to wythenshawe for me heart op, I remember he wasn't very well at the time.

yes i do remember mams doin fine still strong as ever just plannning her 80th birthday party

Hope I get an invite to the do. If not wish Jesse all the very best, from me and Little Alice, by the way what is the date. If I dont come at least I can send Jesse a card.

AITCH:

I do, now that youve mentioned it, remember Mellings Shoe shop on Ince Bar - but I didnt know they were one and the same - as for the other clogger - if you were stood at the top of chatham st - facing the chipper which would have been on your left side - a street then facing - terraced houses on the right (that first house later became a betting shop) the clogger would have been a few doors down from that.
As for that chipper (the Oak Tree pub being a few doors further up Belle Green Lane) I can picture the woman - heavy set - but I cant recall her name.
I also have fond memories of her - her bark was worse than her bite - and yes - she used to give you a bag of chips whenever you brought in clean newspaper - used then to wrap the fish n chips.

AITCH
I DONT KNOW IF I'VE MISSED ANY POSTINGS OUT,BUT WAS THE CHIPPY ACCROSS FROM CHATHAM ST STREET CALLED MASONS,I'M SURE YOU'LL CORRECT ME IF ITS ALREADY BEEN MENTIONED
AS FOR LOCAL CHARACTERS,I DON'T RECALL ANYBODY MENTIONING LITTLE LEN BALDWIN,THINK HE LIVED IN HEBER ST

Len Baldwin is a new one on me Kenny and I lived in Heber street in the late 60s to 70s, one name no one has yet mentioned is little Joe Lowe a very good friend of Billy Davies, don't know if he is still alive the last I heard he was living in Clarington house, if he is still alive he must be in his 90s,he was a right gentle man, hope some one knows something.

KENNY:

Thanks - Lily Mason did have that chippie at the top of Chatham St - youre right.

AITCH:
Sorry - I cant throw any light on Joe Lowe.

aitch/ harold..joe lowe used to live in pryce avenue he used to supply my dad with naughty books .lol..he used to send me n my brothers to pick em up ..

AITCH
I PRETTY SURE IT WAS HEBER ST WERE LITTLE LEN LIVED,IT IS THE STREET THAT RAN FROM BEHIND THE LONG NECK INT IT ? OR HAVE I GOT IT WRONG

JACKO
GETTING BACK TO MASON'S CHIPPY,WELL CHIPPY'S IN GENERAL,DO YOU REMEMBER FURTHER UP BELLE GREEN LANE,ON THE CORNER OF FRANCIS ST.WAS MRS MILLS CHIPPY,IT WAS RIGHT FACING HEMFIELD RD,AND A BLOODY CRACKER OF A CHIPPY IT WAS TOO

re Joe Lowe
joe still lives in clarington place he is still alive and kicking.
but not as active as he was

Thanks for that info gozzer, I may have a trip to see, if they will let me in, like trying to get in fort knox in there