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Anti -Terrorist law
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Cadfael



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2976

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaudete wrote:
Cadfael, I take on board your points which are shared by many people in this current climate of paranoia; understandably so.

If I believed that protecting the public from possible terrorists was the main agenda behind the proposed introduction of this legislation I might be more sympathetic. I do not believe this is the main agenda.

It's my opinion that in order for the USA and its puppet nation, UK, to implement dubious foreign policy in the middle east and other regions of the world deemed to be a threat, the public must be kept in a state of fear and the perception of possible threat must be increased to a level which greatly exceeds the actual threat.

One way in which this can be achieved is by such measures as introducing legislation (such as this) which the government knows is unnecessary, but by doing so it is able to reinforce the fear people feel by making terrorism seem ever more present and difficult to combat.

You will notice that whenever there seems to be a "lull" in terrorist activity and public confidence starts to increase a little, some government report will be released which informs us that (top secret and therefore inscrutable) information coming from the security services has found that the terrorist threat is now even greater and that we should be on a higher state of alert. Fear levels must be maintained.

The public must be kept scared and that fear is nurtured by those who require it to exist. Both domestic and foreign policy depend on it.

As for Magna Carta, although it was also concerned with many matters that were relatively more trivial and - as you say - was not enforced, the concept of Habeas Corpus - one of the foundations of this nation's justice system (emulated throughout the world) had its origins there. My point was simply in these more "enlightened" times we seem to be less "enlightened" than our ancestors of nearly a thousand years ago ........ and the world was (arguably) a more dangerous and brutal place then.


All very good points and I cannot argue with them to much... but how can have a situation where the threat is actually less then the 'perceived' threat? Any threat or rumour must be taken seriously and the measures taken to combat them. It is when we let our guard down that they strike. This is borne out by very recent history, many critics we not impressed by the security measures taken in London in the months before July 7... they were considered to be overboard... and well beyond any threat levels and the same cries about loss of civil liberty were shouted from the rooftops. Sadly... we found out the threat was all to real. It was all to real later on in the year when the failed bombings were attempted.

I have to also say... we hear a lot of protesting about this loss of civil liberty, and our Govt accused of having some sinister hidden agenda. I see very little condemnation of the very people who have placed us in the position where we have to consider such issues. There was one instance last year where an attack was stopped dead by the security services... and what was touted at the time? That it was all a hoax by the Govt! Basically they are damned if they do.. and damned to hell if they don't. We seem to live in a world now where Governments are the criminals... and the terrorist poor downtrodden souls.

On thing I do STRONGLY agree with you on policy in the middle east. The Iraq war being a case in point. If they had been honest and said this war is to get shut of Saddam and his henchmen I could have gone along with it... cos he DID have to go, but all the WMD guff just made us look like idiots. Also... once that job was done our lads should have come home. Iraq would have ceased to be a problem... they would have spent their time killing each other to have time to organise attacks on the US and the UK. It is also my thinking that the last Iraq war was more to do with having a presence there to keep an eye on the eeyits next door. Twisted Evil
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aisforandy



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sick of hearing the term "the threat of terror is real" - if it is so real why do they keep having to tell ua about it? The Government tried to get the CPS and DPP to agree to the 42 day rule - they said there was no need for it - and neither can the government provide an example where detaining somebody for 42 days without charge has helped either prevent a terror incident or gain necessary evidence to charge them. If we start making laws under a "what if" or "just in case" policy - where will it end?

If I am being even more cynical I might ask why these laws were not brought in decades ago if they are that necessary to combat the very real, regular and constant threats of the IRA bombings. These attacks were more random and carried out more often than the events of 7 July.

I am also awaiting to see a "terror trial" which offers a little more to the prosecution than internet conversations discussing ideas. And most of the raids we see turn out to be mistakes - remember those 2 muslim brothers whose house was stormed in an operation involving over 300 police officers? They turned out to be COMPLETELY innocent - if you can cojur up enough evidence for an operation such as this then gaining permission to hold someone for 42 days can't be that hard.

Not forgetting the chap who shouted "nonsense" at Jack Straw at teh Labour Party Conference - and the chap who spoke up to defend the people man-handling him with the word "leave the old man aolne". Both were detained under anti-terror laws.
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Ian Mcl



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 805
Location: Bijou penthouse suite in the heart of Wigan's Theatreland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Douglas Adam's claimed that the answer to the Universe was 42 - maybe Gordy took him too seriously?

A ridiculous and draconian law!
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Townofmemories



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 1541
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cadfael wrote:
Townofmemories wrote:
As one sided and right wing as it may sound, if these sort of people were not allowed into the country, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with it...

But what about when the terrorist is born in this country and is a full British Citizen? And let me make another thing clear... when I say terrorist I mean ALL terrorist regardless of their race or creed.


I understand that wholly. My point of reasoning, is that if there were no terrorists coming into the country from others, then people over here would not be influenced as easily. And I mean ALL terrorists, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc.
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aisforandy



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And maybe put restrictions on the internet too, eh? And how are we going to know which are the terrorists coming in in order to stop them?
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Cadfael



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2976

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aisforandy wrote:


If I am being even more cynical I might ask why these laws were not brought in decades ago if they are that necessary to combat the very real, regular and constant threats of the IRA bombings. These attacks were more random and carried out more often than the events of 7 July.


What happened in NI was far more severe as regard civil rights... suspected members members of the IRA and Royalist were locked away without trial for years... it was called Internment. It was by and large an unmitigated disaster. These new laws do have a fixed length of time, Internment did not. The writ of habeus corpus does still apply.... but for terror suspects it covers a longer period of time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/9/newsid_4071000/4071849.stm

http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/internment+(Ireland)
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Townofmemories



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 1541
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aisforandy wrote:
And maybe put restrictions on the internet too, eh? And how are we going to know which are the terrorists coming in in order to stop them?


I'm not being funny, but the forces that be in this country seem to know when I have too much in savings, the fact that I have various medical conditions, and to know when I have no insurance - I'm sure something simple like Terrorism would be a doddle! I mean, look at the number of terrorists/radical preachers we are harbouring that we actually DO know about? I'm sure the same sort of checks they carry out when you apply for a passport/CRB checks/etc could be used to verify peoples identities before they let them in...
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SAMARES



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 1166
Location: JERSEY C.I.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Anti Terrorist Law Reply with quote

I am a retired airport security agent and in my opinion if we get to paronoid regarding security then the terrorist has won a major battle.
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bloo-moon



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 704
Location: wigan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like the Nays to the right have it.


So ok lets not bother arresting anybody.

New store opening in Town

Bombs 'r ' us BOGOF , they cant arrest you till you set it off


Have a nice day y,hear
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