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Anti -Terrorist law
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bloo-moon



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 704
Location: wigan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Anti -Terrorist law Reply with quote

FOR OR AGAINST !!

To extend suspected terrorists detention with out charge from 28days to 42 days ?

I,m For
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Gaudete



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very much against!

If the police can't come up with enough evidence in 28 days then there isn't enough evidence.

How long before the definition of who is deemed to be a threat to national security is extended to include all sorts of people who are not - by any stretch of the imagination - terrorists, but who may represent inconvenient opposition to the government? These may include legitimate protesters. It's already happened!

28 days is more than enough time; in fact it's far too much. If there is insufficient evidence at the end of that period, the "suspect" should be released until such evidence is found and then rearrested.

Suspicion, in itself, is not enough. This can - and will - be seriously abused.
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bloo-moon



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 704
Location: wigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

come on G, they do their homework on these terrorist ( suspects)
they just dont suspect willy nilly, its serious business we,re talkin about here

They are not stupid these terrorists, ok so we,re talkin another 2 weeks ,

if they need more time to get hard evidence to charge them, why not

give them more time seems sensible to me.

just my opinion

so there Razz
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Gaudete



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bloo-moon wrote:
they do their homework on these terrorist ( suspects)


mmmmmmm Confused

It has become necessary to keep the public - in fact the world - in a constant state of fear and paranoia about possible terrorist attack.

This ongoing "state of alert" allows for a whole range of encroachments into our civil liberties never seen at any point in the past, though, ironically, it is the preservation of our so called "free" way of life that is (apparently) the reason for us needing to be protected from terrorists. This includes freedoms such as the right not to be locked away without being charged with an offence, and has its origins in 1215, Magna Carta. Truly a step backwards into the dark ages, one might argue.

Conveniently, because information about "possible terrorists" is allegedly supplied to the government by the security services - meaning it is classified - we are told we must simply trust the judgement of those who know.

But I understand your argument and know many people who share it. The spin is working.

Quod volimus credimus libenter.

Just bear in mind the term "terrorist" is open to very wide interpretation and does not only apply to "foreigners". Unfortunately, you're right, Bloo; it is a very serious business.

Let's watch and see.
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bloo-moon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IN VINO VERITAS
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Gaudete



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bloo-moon wrote:
IN VINO VERITAS


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Pour me a glass! Wink
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bloo-moon



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh ok
just the one, here here,
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Cadfael



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2976

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would much rather an innocent person be kept detained for what in the grand scheme of things a short time (let us also not forget... they will be kept in comfort).... then see another London Bus ripped apart.

I realise it may be a loss of civil liberty... but we either just go through the motions of fighting terrorism and mouth platitudes... or we actually fight it! We are not talking about 'your' normal criminal here... but an organised group who are expert in covering their tracks until one of them blows themselves up taking 20 innocent people with him.

We demand that our Government takes steps to make sure we are safe and secure against Terrorism... but because we are civilised we look askance at the measures it may take to achieve it. It is not our way to take away a persons liberty for so long without a trail. But, I would go with the lesser of two evils... if detaining someone for 48 days stops a bombing on UK streets.. I support it.

It will happen that someone will be held for the full term who will turn out to be innocent.., it will happen many times. But... it may just happen that ONCE they catch someone who is not! 48 days from someones lifetime is worth the lives saved... even if it only a single life.
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Cadfael



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaudete wrote:
This includes freedoms such as the right not to be locked away without being charged with an offence, and has its origins in 1215, Magna Carta. Truly a step backwards into the dark ages, one might argue.



Referring to Magna Carta is actually a waste of time... it was NEVER enforced. In fact... a few weeks after it was signed it was nullified. The rights we have now have nothing to do with Magna Carta. Once every 40 years or so someone would raise it again in Parliament... and each time it was that Parliament voted not to enforce it because of the simple fact that the person it was aimed to control could dissolve that parliament at the very mention of it. It is the biggest con in British History... the beginning of 'Constitutional Monarchy' yeah... right.... that only happened much later... once Parliament had beheaded one King and invited another King back on their terms.

Also... the only people who would have gained by it was landed Lords, it gave no new freedoms to bondsmen or villiens. It did not make them free or give them a right to be free... nor freedom of conscience.

The Magna Carter is just simple classroom history... a wonderful tale to impress children in schools, it actually meant nothing at the time, nor does it have any bearing now.
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Gaudete



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
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Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cadfael, I take on board your points which are shared by many people in this current climate of paranoia; understandably so.

If I believed that protecting the public from possible terrorists was the main agenda behind the proposed introduction of this legislation I might be more sympathetic. I do not believe this is the main agenda.

It's my opinion that in order for the USA and its puppet nation, UK, to implement dubious foreign policy in the middle east and other regions of the world deemed to be a threat, the public must be kept in a state of fear and the perception of possible threat must be increased to a level which greatly exceeds the actual threat.

One way in which this can be achieved is by such measures as introducing legislation (such as this) which the government knows is unnecessary, but by doing so it is able to reinforce the fear people feel by making terrorism seem ever more present and difficult to combat.

You will notice that whenever there seems to be a "lull" in terrorist activity and public confidence starts to increase a little, some government report will be released which informs us that (top secret and therefore inscrutable) information coming from the security services has found that the terrorist threat is now even greater and that we should be on a higher state of alert. Fear levels must be maintained.

The public must be kept scared and that fear is nurtured by those who require it to exist. Both domestic and foreign policy depend on it.

As for Magna Carta, although it was also concerned with many matters that were relatively more trivial and - as you say - was not enforced, the concept of Habeas Corpus - one of the foundations of this nation's justice system (emulated throughout the world) had its origins there. My point was simply in these more "enlightened" times we seem to be less "enlightened" than our ancestors of nearly a thousand years ago ........ and the world was (arguably) a more dangerous and brutal place then.
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bloo-moon



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oooooooooooooh, nice one G

What do you mean ?

nevermind
in veno veritas, my flower

ich liebe dich xx
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Gaudete



Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 897
Location: Wigan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bloo-moon wrote:
in veno veritas, my flower


Does the above cancel out the following?

bloo-moon wrote:
ich liebe dich xx


Very Happy Wink

Enjoy your vino this evening, Red Baron. Wink xxx
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Townofmemories



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 1541
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one sided and right wing as it may sound, if these sort of people were not allowed into the country, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with it...
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bloo-moon



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 704
Location: wigan

PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oy!! behave
schlafen gut meine liebes

ad infinitum an stuff
habeas corpus N STUFF,

BEHAVE
SILLY
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Cadfael



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2976

PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Townofmemories wrote:
As one sided and right wing as it may sound, if these sort of people were not allowed into the country, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with it...

But what about when the terrorist is born in this country and is a full British Citizen? And let me make another thing clear... when I say terrorist I mean ALL terrorist regardless of their race or creed.
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