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Posted by LEP1950 on 26th September 2015  

Another interesting certificate could be the death certificate of Mary Ince in Warrington in 1866. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much information is on these early death certificates. I only have early marriage and birth certificates myself. It irritates me that the 1861 census says Mary is a widow, but I couldn't relate the birth date, birthplace and name to anyone else. I checked the 1851 census as well. I do think she is the correct Mary. Perhaps the enumerator thought she was widowed because she was old and on her own. It wouldn't be the first time that this information is wrong - unmarried women listed as the "wife" of the person they are living with etc.

I have discovered that Wigan Archives hold some records relating to "title deeds, estate papers, legal, household and personal papers" of the Anderton family of Ince and Euxton from 1230 to the 20th century. They are held by Wigan Archives Services and the catalogue reference is NRA 17928. I don't know whether these papers are in Wigan or in Leigh. People are advised to ring up a few days before their visit to make sure the record is available for them or can be made available. It would be the early 19th century and the name Robert Charles Anderton that would be of interest. But I have no idea what papers are available or how easy or difficult they are to read. Unfortunately, I don't live in Wigan myself, although I was born there.

I have been looking for a baptism of Mary Ann, born abt. 1812, who I take to be Mary Ince's daughter. I haven't been able to find one so far in the area. There is a baptism of a Mary Ann Ince at Manchester Cathedral in October 2011. She is listed as the daughter Of Robert (!) and Mary Ince, but I have absolutely no idea whether this is of any relevance. There are no other children for Robert and Mary Ince in subsequent baptism records, but there is a gap online from the 1790s to 1810 and so I can't assess whether there were previous children and Mary Ann was the last one. The registration of a single child may be significant, but of course we can't so far presume that this is Mary Ann Ince/Callan/Mellor.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th September 2015  

Anne,

It might be useful to get hold of Mary Ann's marriage certificate to William Mellor to check the name Anderton/Anderson. This took place in 1848:

Name William Mellor
Birth Date 1814
Age 34
Spouse's Name Mary Ann Callon
Spouse's Birth Date 1812
Spouse's Age 36
Event Date 20 Jun 1848
Event Place Warrington, Lancaster, England
Father's Name Benjamin Mellor
Spouse's Father's Name Robert Anderson
Marital Status Widowed
Spouse's Marital Status Widowed

I notice that it doesn't say here whether Mary Ann's father is deceased or not. I had it in my head that she married earlier. Unfortunately, it doesn't always note whether the father is dead, even when he is. I have in my own family tree a marriage where the father is listed as deceased, but at the marriage of another daughter two years later only the name of the father is given and he is not recorded as dead, although he definitely was (death certificate!!) It would be interesting to see what other names are on the certiicate.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th September 2015  

Anne,

Here's an explanation regarding "rounding down" in the 1841 census:

"In the 1841 census, the age of persons over 15 was supposed to be rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. For example, a person aged 19 would be listed as 15, a person aged 22 would be listed as age 20, and a person age 59 would be listed as 55. In practice, many census officials either did not round down at all or only rounded down for higher ages, such as over 20, or (less frequently) rounded down ages below 15. In general, the age of a person under 15 is probably accurate to within a year or two." That's why ages in the 1841 census are a bit dodgy.

It means that Mary and Elizabeth were probably several years older than "50" and "40". This is supported by later censuses and also by the birth registers.

It's all a little dificult to grasp if you don't do the research yourself, I know.

Basically, I am convinced that Mary Ince and Elizabeth Ince of the 1841 census were the daughters of Ger(r)ard and Jane Ince. I am also convinced that living with them in 1841 was not only Charles, but also Mary (Ann), the illegitimate children of Mary Ince. Mary ,the daughter, married twice - (1) Richard Callon/Calland etc and (2) William Mellor. At the marriage to William Mellor she gives the name of her father as Robert Anderson (according to the transcription, but there is often confusion between Anderson/Anderton). It would seem that at that time, her father was still alive. Charles, you say, gives his father's name as Anderton Ince. His father was apparently deceased by 1845. There was a local well-to-do family called Ince in Ince at this time. The daughter Frances Sobielski Ince married William Anderton of Euxton. As far as I can remember off the top of my head, they had three sons. One of them (not the heir) was ROBERT CHARLES ANDERTON (died 1843), but the sons also attached the name of their mother INCE to their names. It's usually given as INCE ANDERTON, but I don't know whether there were any legal rules about the order of the names. Although Mary Ince (the mother) had been a servant, it seems that she had enough mony as a fundholder in her old age (1861 census) to keep herself. This strikes me as strange. So - and I cannot prove this, of course - I think it very possible that she may have been a servant in the INCE-ANDERTON household and that she had two children with ROBERT CHARLES. Perhaps she was seduced by him or he fell in love with her. There were status differences and the Ince Andertons were also Catholics, but perhaps Robert provided for Mary in some way. When I suggested you go to Wigan Archives, I thought there might be documents that might have to do with Robert Charles, perhaps a maintenance order. But actually I think it unlikely that Mary would have taken a member of this family to court.

Try to work through the messages slowly, checking them with the censuses and scans on ancestry and so on. If you need any further help, just yell. I often look at this site and I love a mystery "case".

All the best,

Linda

Posted by Anne Hodge on 25th September 2015  parkroadding@gmail.com 

Linda
Are there any bmd certificates I might find useful re the Ince family. Thank you. Anne

Posted by Anne Hodge nee Ince on 25th September 2015  parkroadding@gmail.com 

Dear LEP,
Many thanks indeed for information you have unearthed for me. I will take my time in following up your leads .Im not very good researching all the different Elizabeth's and Mary's in the Ince family and find it quite confusing at times. The 1841 census which has Elizabeth,Mary and Charles living together puzzles me but your explanation re age 'round ups' is helpful. Would it help me if I visited Wigan archives and cemeteries to find out more. I only live in Bacup which is quite near. Thank you

Posted by Anne Hodge on 25th September 2015  parkroadding @gmail.com 

Linda,
I thank you so much for your information. I have been searching for a very long time re Anderton Ince my GGF x4 and nearly gave up recently. But because I am an Ince (maiden name) feel I should go on. I am about to read all the new information I have received. I will definitely return here. Thank you so much

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th September 2015  

Hi Anne,

a final piece of the jigsaw - in the 1841 census with Elizabeth Ince, Mary Ince and Charles Ince are the following people:

Margaret Calland (50)
Mary Calland (25)
Mary Calland(7)
Martha Calland (3)

Richard Callond (sic) died aged 29 in 1839. Margaret was most probably his mother. Mary was his wife (age rounded down) and Mary and Martha his daughters. Martha is in the 1851 census with William Mellor.
Names were written down as they were heard and so Callan, Callon, Calland and Callond all appear.

This entry with Mary Ann and Charles both living with Mary and Elizabeth Ince (the aunt) convinces me that Mary had two children with Robert Anderton/Anderson and that there is a very high chance that he was Robert Charles Anderton Ince, particularly when one considers that Mary Ince had enough funds to live off in her old age. Where would she have been able to save enough money as a servant (1851 census)??

I had fun looking up all this for you, but I really, really hope that you look at this website again.

All the best,
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th September 2015  

Anne,

I have now found a marriage linking Mary Ann Mellor to the Ince family. It was in the national records and not on Lancs OPC and I missed it last night.

You remember that Elizabeth Ince was listed as "aunt" with the Mellor family in the 1861 census in Bank Quay, Warrington, and that Mary Ince was living next door as a fundholder. Wiliam Mellor's wife Mary Ann had been married beore as there is a stepdaughter called Martha Callon listed.
There is a marriage in Wigan for Mary Ann Ince to Richard Callon in 1833:

Name: Mary Ann Ince
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 11 Jul 1833
Marriage Place: Wigan, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Richard Callan
FHL Film Number: 1885692
Reference ID: Book 3,p.62 No.185

If the census age for Mary Ann is correct, then she was born about 1812. I couldn't find a definite father, but look what I found on familysearch!!


Name William Mellor
Birth Date 1814
Age 34
Spouse's Name Mary Ann Callon
Spouse's Birth Date 1812
Spouse's Age 36
Event Date 20 Jun 1848
Event Place Warrington, Lancaster, England
Father's Name Benjamin Mellor
Spouse's Father's Name Robert Anderson
Marital Status Widowed
Spouse's Marital Status Widowed

At this marriage, Mary Ann Ince's (the name at her first marriage), gives her father's name as Robert ANDERSON!!!
This is a transcription and the original may well say ANDERTON, and even if it didn't, then I know because I have researched the name before, that Anderton and Anderson are often confused. NOW DO YOU THINK THAT MARY ANN WAS THE DAUGHTER OF ROBERT CHARLES ANDERTON (INCE attached from his moter) and MARY INCE!!! Then Elizabeth was truly her aunt and it's not surprising that Mary lived next door. I think it is very, very possible.

I am so excited about this discovery and I just hope you finally look at this site again!!!!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th September 2015  

For Anne Ince:

There is an interesting death of a Mary Ince in Warrington in 1866. This Mary Ince seems to have been next door to William Mellor and Elizabeth Ince in the 1861 census. I had seen her before, but I had rejected her because she is listed as a widow in the 1861 census, but she was born in Wigan at the correct time (ca 1785) However, she is listed as a "fundholder". I don't know. It seems strange to me. What funds was she holding??? And why is she suddenly widowed when she was always unmarried? Did she want to sound more respectable???

Further research shows that apparently a "fundholder" lived off dividends from investments or property.

I need to think about this some more, but (and I'm speculating here) could Mary have been seduced by one of the Ince-Anderton younger sons and received some kind of settlement?? There was one son called Robert Charles Ince Anderton who never married and died in 1843 (before Charles's marriage). I have come across many illegitimate children and discovered that they are often named ater the mother's father or the biological father in cases where they later married. "Charles" was not named after his grandfather. There must have been a reason for Mary choosing the name Charles.
I'd try taking a trip to Wigan Archives to see what you can find out about the Ince Andertons, particularly Robert Charles.

Anyway here's this Mary's death:

Name: Mary Ince
Gender: Female
Age: 80
Birth Date: 1786
Death Place: Parish of Prescot, Chapelry of Sankey, Lancaster, England
Burial Date: 9 Jan 1866
FHL Film Number: 1952267
Reference ID: item 6 p 28

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd September 2015  

Thanks Paula!

Again for Anne:

I have found Elizabeth Ince of the 1841 census (the one living with Mary and Charles and almost certainly Mary's sister). It's no wonder you couldn't find her in 1851. She's in Warrington with a certain William Mellor and his wife Mary Ann, stepdaughter Martha Callon and little son Robert. Elizabeth is transcribed as "Suca" (!) The scan of the census is so clearly "Ince" that I really can't understand this. There is a black mark through the age and the transcriber guesses "44", but actually the first number is a "5". She was born in Wigan and is listed as a visitor. Elizabeth is with the same family at Bank Quay, Warrington in 1861, now clearly Elizabeth Ince and with the moreorless correct age of "65". She has now become the aunt. I've not been able to establish a biological relationship with either William or Mary A., although I've looked at Mary's maiden name and the name of her first husband. Also no Mellor - Ince connection. Possibly, the family had "adopted" Elizabeth as an aunt. Anyway, she dies in Bank Quay in January, 1863 aged 67. There is a scan on ancestry.

LEP1950

Posted by Paula Mitchell on 23rd September 2015  

Good luck Linda and I will definitely let you know if I find out anything. I'm hoping to put together my research to give my mam for her 80th next year, still quite a bit of work to do on her side. Thanks for all your help in the past if it wasn't for you I know I would have given up. I would love to have the knowledge you have in records and working things out, hopefully in time I'll get better. All the best to you and your project for the coming months.
Paula x

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd September 2015  

Hi Paula,

Nice to hear from you again. I you ever do get to the bottom of that Richard mystery, please let me know.

I've decided that I am not going to get any further back with my own ancestry and intend to write up my notes into a continuous document for my children this winter.

I do wish that Anne would look at this thread again. I don't know whether I'm researching for no reason. It would be a shame if she didn't read what I've found out about the family of her ancestor Mary Ince.

So, all the best for you!

Linda

Posted by Paula Mitchell on 23rd September 2015  

Hi LEP1950. Long time no speak!! I've been researching other members of the Hilton clan and given Richard a miss for a few months. Sat down last night and thought I'm going to start getting back into it with a fresh mind! I have started on Richards siblings and their children/ grandchildren. First one I started on was Ellen Sherrington who married Richard Ollerton. The count so far is 7 children to this couple. One of them being Mary Ollerton, who married a 'William Hilton'. How strange is that!! I'm going to follow this family see if Richard Sherrington had anything to do with them in that past, maybe it was a family he knew well and that is why he changed his name to Hilton. Maybe nothing in it but I'm quite intrigued to find out about this family. Paula x

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd September 2015  

There are several deaths of a Thomas Ince in the Wigan area, but I think this is the death of Ger(r)ard's father:

Burial: 9 Nov 1781 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Thos. Ince -
Age: 63
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Weaver
Cause of Death: Paralatick
Register: Burials 1754 - 1793, Page 19
Source: LDS Film 93745


This could well be Thomas's wife Jane's death:

Burial: 18 Mar 1794 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Jane Ince, Widow -
Age: 78
Abode: Wigan Lane
Cause of Death: Decay
Notes: P
Register: Burials 1779 - 1809, Page 209, Entry 3
Source: LDS Film 1885700


IN 1794, Ger(rard) Ince was living in Standishgate, down the road from Wigan Lane. This is known from the baptism registers. Perhaps other siblings were also in the area and Jane moved to be closer to them. The given age corresponds to a birth around 1716/17. Perhaps she is the Jane from York.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd September 2015  

More support for my theory:

Ger(r)ard Ince died in 1834 aged 85 at PEPPERMILL, Wigan!!

Burial: 18 May 1834 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Gerard Ince -
Age: 85
Abode: Pepper Mill
Cause of Death: Decay
Buried by: J.K.Glazebrook
Register: Burials 1830 - 1834, Page 265, Entry 2117
Source: LDS Film 1885701


Wife Jane died a year later in 1835, also at PEPPERMILL:

Burial: 17 Mar 1835 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Jane Ince -
Age: 78 Years
Abode: Peppermill
Cause of Death: Fever
Buried by: H. O.Neill
Register: Burials 1834 - 1839, Page 15, Entry 119
Source: LDS Film 1885702

Presumably, the two unmarried daughters were living with their parents and continued to live there after their deaths, at least until after the 1841 census.

I'm not going to list all the siblings and their families. Details are very easy to find. I found Mary in 1851, but so far I don't know what happened to Elizabeth. I'm still looking.

Gerrard was most likely baptised in Hindley in October, 1748, the son of Thomas Ince, a weaver, and Jane his wife, of Ince. There is a scan of the register on ancestry. Thomas and Jane, along with the names of the parents of Ger(r)ard's wife Jane (Edward and Mary), were the names of the first children of Ger(r)ard and Jane. Ger(r)ard had a sister called Elizabeth, who was born in 1743 and also baptised in Hindley. Further siblings were James (1746), Thomas (1750/51 sic), John (1754), Alice (1757) and Christopher (1759), all baptised at All Saints, Wigan.

I haven't been able to find a marriage for Thomas and Jane yet. But this may well be Thomas's baptism:

Baptism: 18 May 1718 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Thomas Ince - Son of Thomas Ince
Abode: Hindley
Register: Baptisms 1698 - 1723, Page 40
Source: LDS Film 93745

I also couldn't find Jane's baptism in the area. This leads me to think that Thomas and Jane married in Jane's parish, wherever that was. A baptism of a Jane Addison in York in 1717 gives an Edward as the father, but there is no mention of a mother's name. So here again, there is nothing definite. It looks like that's about as far as you can go with Mary Ince's ancestry.

Sorry that I have no more ideas about Mr Anderton Ince or Ince Anderton.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd September 2015  

For Anne:

I don't know whether you found Mary Ince in the 1851 census, but it looks like she is unmarried and living as a servant in Donaldson's Yard, off Standishgate. The census, as far as I'm concerned, clearly gives her age as 65. I magnified the figures and compared them with the sixes and fives on the page. For some reason, the transcriber assumed 55 and has her birth date wrong by ten years. Her year of birth would be around 1786. This corresponds almost exactly to the date in my previous mail. She also states that she was born in Wigan. Ok, this doesn't always have to be true, but I really do think she was the daughter of Gerrard and Jane.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st September 2015  

Hi Anne,

Charles Ince was indeed the illegitimate son of Mary Ince, and he was christened on January 15th, 1823. There is no birth date on the scan of the Bishop's Transcipts on ancestry. I did notice that the family search records note a birth date in 1815, but whether this was on the original record at All Saints, I don't know. Charles is listed as "base son" at the baptism, presumably eight years after his birth, and so I assume that Mary never married his father. The address was given as Peppermill. This was near Darlington Street in Scholes, and it is the area where Mary is living with Charles in 1841. Charles is 25, and so a birth date of 1815 is feasible. Mary is listed as being "50", but you have to remember that ages were rounded down to the nearest "5" for people over 15 in this census. That means that even if she had got her age exactly right and she was, say, 54 and 11 months, she would still have been listed as being "50". Ages around this time were hardly ever exact ayway. With Mary and Charles is an Elizabeth Ince, supposedly "40", but possibly almost five years older due to the rounding down. I take her to be Mary's sister. (Ok, she could be her sister-in-law). This leads me to think that Mary and Elizabeth were possibly the daughters of Gerard Ince and Jane, nee Addison, daughter of Edward and Mary Addison.These could be their baptisms when the rounding-down factor is considered:

Baptism: 23 Jan 1785 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Ince - first Daur. of Gerard Ince & Jane (formerly Addison)
Born: 30 Dec
Abode: Scoles
Occupation: Publican
Mother's Parents: Edward & Mary Addison
Register: Baptisms 1779 - 1799, Page 123
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Baptism: 24 Jan 1795 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Ince - third Daur. of Gerard Ince & Jane (formerly Addison)
Born: 27 Nov
Abode: Standishgate
Occupation: Labourer
Mother's Parents: Edward & Mary Addison
Register: Baptisms 1779 - 1799, Page 370
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

I think there are nine children registered for this couple between 1779 and 1797. They are all listed on Lancs OPC and can be easily found.

On the other hand, bearing in mind that Charles was also in Kirkham at some time, perhaps the following baptism also needs investigating:

Baptism: 30 Jul 1785 St Michael, Kirkham, Lancashire, England
Mary Ince - f John Ince & Ellen
Abode: Kirkham
Notes: Duty 3
Source: LDS Film 1502433

But I couldn't find an Elizabeth or Betty for this couple.

You seem to have a marriage certificate for Charles. Don't forget that illegitimate children at this time occasionally "invented" a father on records. I couldn't find any evidence of an "Anderton Ince". Was there a comma between the two names? There was a well-to-do family called Ince Anderton of Euxton (near Chorley) and Ince. William Anderton (of Euxton) had married Frances Ince (of Ince) and their sons used both names together. The successor in 1811 was William Ince Anderton, but he died in 1848, and so he would have been alive in 1844 (??) If Mary had been a servant, she may have been seduced by one of the family. Perhaps one of his brothers.The difference in standing could explain why there was no marriage. But this is just speculation and something that would be impossible to prove.

Anyway, those are my thoughts so far.

LEP1950

Posted by Anne Ince on 21st September 2015  parkroadding@gmail.com 

Help Required
I cannot find my GFx4 ; Anderton Ince born about 1772 in Wigan not married to Mary? surname born 1791 in Wigan. They had a son Charles born about 1815 in Pepper Mill. The only proof I have of Anderton is on the marriage certificate 1844 of the son Charles where Anderton was described as diseased.I have no information on Mary my GM except on Charles birth cert,22nd July 1815 and Baptism Cert 15th January 1823. Only Marys name mentioned.Appreciate any help /suggestions. Thank you

Posted by Eve on 9th September 2015  

Hi No it's definitely Orrell Wigan, because I have him baptised in St. James Church Orrell and on one of the census' It states he was born in Upholland
Eve

Posted by Jimmy on 9th September 2015  

Eve.
you could be looking for James in the wrong place if you are looking in Wigan.
It sounds to me that he was born in, and lived in Orrell in Liverpool.
What church was he baptised at?