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Posted by LEP1950 on 25th November 2015  

For JBrown86:

I've had a little success and have discovered the baptisms of four of Caroline Hollins' children. They were baptised as adults/adolescents at the chapelry of Haslingden on August 2nd 1874. This is what is in the parish registers, but it's wrong in as far as John and William's names are the wrong way round. William was the eldest (known from birth registration). So here goes:

JOHN, b. 27 March 1853
WILLIAM, born 1 December 1856
(The above two names should be swapped)
JOSIAH, b. 29 March 1862
ROBERT, b. 5 December 1866

Parents are named as John Isherwood and Caroline nee Hollins. John is described as a collier. It doesn't say that he's deceased, but that doesn't mean he isn't. Abode is given as Heap Clough. Now why, oh why wasn't Sarah Jane baptised along with the boys?!!!

The information is on ancestry under "Lancashire, Births&Baptisms 1813-1911" If you haven't got a subscription, I can send you a copy of the scan of the parish register if you tell me your email.

Linda

PS I hope you react soon. I feel like I'm talking to myself.

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th November 2015  

I think that CATHERINE HOLLINS possibly married in the first quarter of 1851, i.e. before the census. Lancashire marriage records have a marriage of a Catherine Hollins to George Smith at St John's, Manchester. I haven't been able to find out who is named as the father as the records for St John are not online. However, they seem to be at Manchester Archives+Manchester Central Library.

I am still wondering whether Catherine and Caroline are the same person. I've been trying to follow Catherine up, but with a surname like SMITH, it's not easy.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th November 2015  

According to familysearch JOSIAH HOLLINS married MARY ANN HANNAH in Stockport, Cheshire in 1821 (no further details). The Bishop's transcripts give the date as January 1st.

Between 1821 and 1829 they had the children Sarah (1821), Jane (1824), Samuel (1827) and John (1829), who were all baptised at St Michael, Ashton under Lyne. Samuel and John died as small children. Their burials are on Lancashire OPC at St Peter's, Ashton under Lyne. Daughter Jane seems to have died aged 16 in 1841 along with an 18-month old brother William. Their burials are also online. In 1841, the family were living in Newton Moor.

The 1841 census has Josiah and Mary Ann both aged 40 (but they may have been a couple of years older as ages were rounded down in Harrison Fold, Newton and Godley, hundred of Macclesfield. SARAH is still alive, but here there is a KEZIAH aged 20 (20 to 24!).She is new!, then CATHERINE (12), MARY ANN (8) and ANN (5).
In the 1851 census Josiah Hollins (wrongly transcribed as JONAH, is listed as living in Mulberry Street, Flowery Fields, Newton. He was apparently born in Yorkshire and Mary Ann in London. He is a draper by profession. Keziah is still at home, now aged 27. She may have been 17 in the 1841 census placing her birth at around 1823/4. Strange!! Catherine is no longer at home, but there are now a further six children: Mary Ann (17), Ann (15), Jane (8), Frederick (7), Josiah (3) and Amanda (2 months). All the children apart from Amanda were born in Hyde, Chesire. Amanda was born in Newton. Wife Mary Ann would have been quite old by then. Possibly the younger ones were grandchildren (speculation!).

There is no mention of a Caroline in these two censuses. Nor can she be found living away from the family. Was she perhaps Catherine?? And where was Catherine Hollins in 1851??

Josiah Hollins is named as Caroline's father in 1855 at the marriage to John Isherwood. Also most of his children were born in Hyde, Cheshire, as Caroline claimed to have been.

Josiah Hollins seems to have died in Newton in 1856 aged 55 and was buried on August 5th of that year at St Peter's church, Ashton under Lyne.

I read once that it is not illegal in England to start calling yourself something else if it is done without criminal intent. Perhaps Caroline didn't like her (unknown!)name and started calling herself Caroline (maybe she didn't like Isherwood either!!). It certainly is very strange, but I'll continue to look.

Do you have the marriage certificate of Sarah Jane Isherwood? What profession is given for John? Or does it just say "deceased". A profession might help to trace him and to find out when he died.

Linda

PS I can't write to your email adress as I haven't got "outlook" and so it doesn't appear. I would prefer to just paste in things I find, but I know from experience that these messages then don't appear.

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th November 2015  

So the main question is whether Sarah Jane Isherwood and Sarah Jane Hollins are the same person and whether she is the Sarah Jane Isherwood you are looking for, right?

So here's what I've gathered and I presume you probably know this:

The 1861 census shows a Caroline Hollins lodging in Heap, Heywood, aged abt. 28 (so born 1828/29) and born in Hyde, Cheshire. She is listed as "M", but there is no husband with her. However, there are three children:
William, 9, born Dukenfield, Chesire
John, 5, born Dukenfield, Chesire
Sarah Jane, 3, born Bury, Lancashire.
All the children have the surname Hollins.

Familysearch has a marriage of a Caroline Hollins to a John Isherwood at St John's, Dukenfield, Cheshire on April 23rd 1855. John was supposedly 37 and she was 26. There is a discrepancy in Caroline's age here, but that is not unusual. Caroline's father's name is given as Josiah, John's as William. But why was Caroline calling herself "Hollins" in 1861 if she had married John Isherwood in 1855?? Son William was born before the marriage and is registered as William Hollins in the district of Congleton.

In 1871 Sarah Jane Hollons (sic) is in Dukenfield, near Stockport, with her mother Carolina (sic) Hollins, brothers William and John and younger brothers Joshua (9) and Robert (4). The two younger brothers were both listed as being born in Bury. Robert's birth is registered in Bury North in 1865 (Isherwood, maiden name Hollins - so he was older than "4"). There is no registration of Joshua/Josiah on Lancs BMD, but the national registers have the birth of Josiah Isherwood in the Apr/May/June quarter of 1862 in Bury. Brother John's birthplace is now Mostyn, Lancashire. But Mostyn is in Wales (??). Perhaps Moston, Manchester is meant. Carolina is now supposedly "widowed". Why is she still using her maiden name? Are the younger children John Isherwood's children or was she hiding from him? It might be interesting to get hold of a birth certificate of Josiah, for example.

In the 1881 census Sarah Jane Isherwood is head of the household, now supposedly born in 1861, but she was already three years old in the 1861 census!! Mother Caroline Isherwood is with her, now 47 (She gets younger by the day) as well as brother Robert from the previous census and a new brother ALBERT, aged 7, who was born in Haslingden in the Oct/Nov/Dec/ quarter 1873. So if Caroline was widowed in 1871, who is his father?

In 1891, Caroline is living with son Robert in Haslingden. This fits in with Sarah Jane marrying in the previous decade as she is no longer living with her mother. In 1901 she is lodging with lots of other people in Haslingden (perhaps a lodging house).

Was Caroline really widowed by 1871? Or did she have son Albert with husband John in 1873? Was she in hiding? Did John find her? Why does she only start calling herself Isherwood after 1873?

I haven't yet been able to find christenings of the children and no definite birth registration for Sarah Jane. Possibly they were christened in churches for which baptisms are not online. Or I have the feeling that they may have been non-Conformists. Sarah Jane's marriage did not take place in a CofE church.

Have found out quite a bit about Josiah Hollins, but cannot link him to Caroline apart from on the marriage entry. Caroline was possibly not her first name.

More later!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th November 2015  

Re.: Sarah Jane Isherwood

First of all, it might help to eliminate the one born in Haslingden, the daughter of blacksmith John Isherwood and Sarah Walsh with a grandfather called Robert Isherwood (discussed in the last posts).

This Sarah is living with her mother in 1871 in Briercliffe (reg. district Burnley). Her mother had been widowed early and had married Richard Walton in 1868. Children from his first marriage are with him in this census, including a Betsy Walton. This is important as Sarah Jane Isherwood of Briercliffe marries a John Tattersall at St Bartholomew, Colne on August 5th 1875. One of the witnesses is BETSY Walton, and the profession of Sarah's father is given as "blacksmith". Sarah Jane is with John Tattersall in 1881 and 1891 and therefore could not be the Sarah Jane you are looking for.

It really looks like the one you are looking for is Sarah Jane Isherwood/Hollins, but there are a few strange things here. More later.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th November 2015  

Hi,
I've been looking at Sarah Jane Isherwood again and see that it's not as straightforward as it looked. She may indeed not have been born "Isherwood". It's a bit late tonight and so I have to give up. Have done a lot of crosschecking and some things speak for the Sarah born Isherwood and others or the Sarah born Hollins. I really need to think about this more. I haven't reached a supported opinion yet.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd November 2015  

For JBrown86 and Geraldine:

Just been browsing around. Sarah Jane Isherwood is with her parents in the 1861 census living in Burnley (88, Anne Street). Sister Anne is 13. Both Sarah and her sister were born in Haslingden, as was father John, whose age here is given as 46. Mother Sarah was born in Oswaldthistle around 1822.

Familysearch has the christening of a John Isherwood to a Robert Isherwood (Robert was the name of father given at marrriage of John Isherwood and Sarah Walsh) in Haslingden on May 26th 1813. I am pretty sure this is the family you need.

In the 1841 census Robert, a dyer (see marriage registration of John and Sarah for same profession) is living in the registration district of Haslingden with Anne (51) and the children

John (25), a BLACKSMITH!!
Daniel (20)
Peter (19)
Thomas (17)
Mary Ann (15)
James (13)
Maria (11)
Matilda (9)

The ages of John and Daniel are most likely rounded down to the nearest "5" in this census, as was ususal. Why some of the family have the correct ages, I don't know. The family is in King Street, Haslingden.

Haven't got any further yet and have to go out until this evening.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd November 2015  

JBrown 86/Geraldine:

I think you can safely assume that Sarah Jane did not marry William Brown. Son Henry married under the name Henry Brown CROWTHER (Beatrice Jenkinson, 1913). Their children William, Arthur and Albert were all christened under the name Brown-Crowther. Also the 1911 census gives no information about how long William and Sarah were supposedly married.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd November 2015  

ForJBrown86 and Geraldine (Hi, Geraldine, you have been quiet for a while!)

I would think that Geraldine is correct, and that makes it easy to follow Sarah Jane's ancestry. The birth registers give the maiden name of her mother as WALSH.

A JOHN ISHERWOOD married SARAH WALSH on 15 Dec 1845 at St Peter's in Burnley. Unfortunately the marriage register transcripts have SHERWOOD as John's surname, but the register of banns at the same church have ISHERWOOD. Banns were read on Nov 30 1845, Dec 7, 1845 and Dec 14 1845. John was a blacksmith, as Geraldine mentioned. His father's name was ROBERT ISHERWOOD, a dyer. Sarah's father's name was HENRY WALSH, a labourer. You're lucky if they originally came from the Burnley area. The registers of St Peter's go back to 1562!! I haven't looked as it's quite late.
There don't seem to be any children of John and Sarah baptised at St Peter's, Burnley. Possibly they moved out of the area quite soon after their marriage. In fact, I could only find two children for this couple: SARAH JANE, who was baptised on April 27, 1856 at St James, Haslingden, as Geraldine already pointed out, and an older sister called ANNE, who was born on Oct 11, 1847 and christened on Feb 20, 1848 at the same church. However, there seems to have been another daughter called MARIA, who was born in 1850 and died as an infant.

Hope the above are the right people!

Linda

Posted by geraldine long on 22nd November 2015  

JBrown86
Apologies re details of baptism of John Crowther should have read 18/6/1837 son of William and Betty

Posted by geraldine long on 21st November 2015  

FAO JBrowm86
Baptism 27 Apr 1856 at StJames Haslingdon Sarah Jane Isherwood daughter of john Isherwood and Sarah abode Haslingdon fathers occupation blacksmith
Baptism 18/6/1887 St John the Divine Holme-in-Cliviger John Crowther son of Thomas and Ellen
Marriage 1883 Hyndburn register office or registrar attended John Crowther and Sarah jane Isherwood
The two children Ellen Crowther (b)1884 Albert Isherwood Crowther (b) 1887 mothers maiden name Isherwood both place of birth Haslingdon.
Burial at St John the Divine Holme-in-Cliviger 20/2/1890 John Crowther age 52yrs
Address 92 Oxford Rd Burnley Wood.
obviously not sure if these are the two children you mentioned it was just the link with Sarah Jane and the children being born in Haslingdon that caught my attention.

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st November 2015  jbrown.toros@gmail.com 

SARAH JANE ISHERWOOD has been the hardest to track in my entire Family Tree in the years I've worked on it. Dad's tried too and he's stumped. She's my great-great-grandmother and what I'm after are solid details re. her birth date and place, and parents' names.

so far:
b.1856-1861 (probably Bury, Lancashire)
Father: possibly John Isherwood (marriage cert)
m. John Crowther in 1883, but by 1891 was living with William Brown (my g-g-gfather), with her two Crowther children and one Brown child (all listed as Brown on census, however). She had at least two more with William, who she never actually married as far as I can tell.

Ancestry links to an 1861 Census Sarah Jane Hollins (also Hollons in 1871), unsure if this is the same person (birth year/place match well).

Any help on finding solid info re. Sarah J's birth date, place, and parents' names would knock down a huge barrier :)

Jon

Posted by Jennifer Smith on 15th November 2015  jslash831@yahoo.com 

Selina Holland and Andrew Dougherty/Dockerty were my 2nd great grandparents. I see that someone else has commented on trying to find more information out about these individuals. Please contact me. I would love to know how we may help each other.

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Yvonne,
I don't know what happened to my messages.The first one was long and contained internet sources. It didn't get through. So I split the content into three messages and typed everything in by hand. I've no idea what happened. Of course you won't understand the two that appeared without the first ones. I'll try to post them on the wigaworld.co.uk site under home -messages-people. If this doesn't work, could you post your email here and I'll send you the information privately? I think it will interest you.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Yvonne,
I have only just discovered something to corroborate my theory. Thomas Crawford (the grandfather of yours) is in the 1881 census in Hindley with wife Elizabeth and his unmarried 30 year old daughter Elizabeth. Here Thomas and his wife say they were born in MONAGHAN. With them is a WILLIAM BIDWELL, listed as an uncle from URMAGH. I don't know whether this should be ARMAGH, which is about 17 miles from County Monaghan. But he's oviously an uncle on Elizabeth's side. He died at Wigan Union (workhouse) in 1885.

So, that's it for now. I've been wondering whether the Methodist religion, despite Clones being a bastion, only came into the family with John Crawford's (your Thomas's father's) marriage. William Bedwell is registered as belonging to the Church of England.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

More info for Yvonne:

I've just been looking at what I scribbled down a couple of weeks ago and discovered that I think Elizabeth Bedwell was the daughter of John Bedwell and Isabella Gallagher, who married in Clones, Monaghan on June 2nd, 1801. John is here listed as "Bedwir". There are two baptisms of children for this couple - JOHN, b. Sept. 21st, 1817 to JOHN BEDWELL and ISABELLA GALLAGHER in Clones, Monaghan and of PELINA JANE BEDWILL on May 14th, 1820 to JON (sic) BEDWILL and ISABELLA PELINA GALLAGHER.I don't suppose these two were their only chidren considering that the'd been married for 16 years when John arrived, BUT what is interesting is that there is a burial at All Saints, Wigan of an ISABELLA POLYNER BEEDWELL(sic) on December 9th, 1847. She lived in the Scholes area of Wigan and died a month after MARIA BEEDWELL, aged 27 (her daughter?) at the same address. Pelina or Polyner?? Phonetically the same, and Pelina is a strange name anyway. I'm convinced that this Isabella is Elizabeth's mother and that she came over to Wigan with her daughter and family. Perhaps John was already dead.

Something for you to think about.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015