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That all sounds pretty fascinating- hope to have a chance later to go through it when family lite!
I did get Sarah Livesay's death cert.- she died March 17th, 1842 at Standishgate of TB. Aged 48 'widow of Humphrey Livesay, Land Surveyor'. Her son-in-law (my ancestor), Geoerge Haslam, registered the death. Nothing really new there but increases the chances she was buried at St. Mary's (if they had burials then?).
It's all getting a bit complicated. I hope you can follow me:
When George Sidgreaves died, one of the executors of his will was WILFRED FRANCIS ANDERTON, his nephew. I have found out that this WILFRED FRANCIS was married to MILDRED WALBURGA TEMPEST, daughter of Henry Tempest and JEMIMA TEMPEST, nee DE TRAFFORD, the daughter of the first baronet Thomas de Trafford, son of John!!!
So around several corners, the Sidgreaves and de Traffords are linked. Another pointer towards Margaret, George's wife, possibly being the daughter of Felix and Frances???
The convent in Mickelgate is the oldest surviving RC convent in England. It was established in 1686 and at first functioned secretly. Many daughters of rich Catholics attended the school. The elder Sidgreaves daughter Ann is listed as a pupil in 1851.
Only found two Fryer marriages at St Andrew's in Leyland, and one was much later. In 1805 Felix and Frances married. The other was in 1835. No baptisms. Ok, the children would have been baptised Catholic, but marriages had to be in an Anglican church. It doesn't look like there were so many Fryers around in Leyland. Does this add a bit of weight to the theory that Margaret, born in Leyland, was Felix's daughter?
I have beeen pondering an interesting case. I thought (perhaps still think) I had found another child of Felix and Frances. This is the marriage:
Marriage: 27 May 1828 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
George Sidgreaves - Bachelor, this Parish
Margaret Fryer - Spinster, this Parish
Witness: Edward Sidgreaves; Francis Hopper
Married by Licence by: Roger Carus Wilson Vicar
Register: Marriages 1825 - 1828, Page 226, Entry 100
Source: LDS Film 1278741
Of course, there were other Fryers in Preston. Margaret was born in 1809 in Cuerden in the parish of Leyland. This was the very parish in which Felix was born and in which, I think, the marriage to Frances Livesey took place. So this is my first reason for associating her with Felix. Secondly in 1851, the census shows that they had a daughter called Frances. This seemed like another link to Felix and Frances, especially since the other daughter (known from George's will) was called Ann, which was the name of George's mother. The couple has two sons, Thomas and John,neither of whom was named after a grandfather. The family seems to have been Catholic, since in the 1861,1871 and 1881 censuses Frances is a nun in a convent in Mickelgate, York. In 1871, a 17-year old Teresa Sidgreaves is a pupil at the convent,presumably a relative, possibly a cousin but not her niece.
Margaret dies in 1881 and George in 1883. He was a retired magistrate.And now this is where I had been having doubts again. George left over 66 THOUSAND pounds in his will!!! That was an absolute fortune in those days. Now, of course, Margaret - if she was the daughter of Felix and Frances - would have had famous family roots, but is it possible that Margaret was living in a house wth servants with her rich husband while her siblings were weaving??? I don't know. There's Margaret's birthplace, the daughter named possibly after her grandmother, the Catholicism, but there is her very different fate in life. What do you think?? Lots of info on George on ancestry. If you can't find it, let me know.
Looked at the 1851 census. I think it was a transcription error. If you look closely it says "Fryers". The 1842 death of a Frances is a possibility, but there is no age on ancestry, and this Frances could, of course, have been a baby, the daughter of an older son? I can't find either Felix or Frances in the 1841 census. Felix presumably died sometime between 1832 (poll book) and 1841.
There are several marriage possibilities for older children at St John's Preston in the 1830s, but no father mentioned. Like you, I would presume that there were at least another five children between 1805 and 1820.
Thank you- I'm not up to much as my wife is on the 'school run' which in our case is a 7 hour round trip to the deep south. May slip off to the pub at lunchtime!
I found another brother, Henry, on the 1851 census with Peter- under the name Feyers (could no-one in Preston hear!). So we have a big gap c.1805-1819- I'm assuming there may well be a whole raft of other Fryers out there! I don't know what happened to Frances although there is a possible death for her in Preston in 1842.
First of all congratulations!! Hope you have a really nice day.
Perhaps you have the two marriages below but, if not, they point to the two children Peter and Betty Fryer. The two (different) curates seem to have both been hard of hearing. One first writes down "Philip" for "Felix" before amending it and in the second one Felix seems to have become "Phoenix":
Marriage: 7 May 1843 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Peter Fryers - (X), 24, Spinner, Bachelor, Moor Lane
Elizabeth Todd - (X), 23, Frame Tenter, Spinster, Bedford St
Groom's Father: Late Felix Fryers, Manufacturer
Bride's Father: Late John Todd, Bricklayer
Witness: Charles Stokes, (X); Mary Ann Todd, (X)
Married by Banns by: Henry Offley Irwin Curate
Notes: [Groom's father's name amended from Philip]
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1843, Page 168, Entry 335
Source: LDS Film 93993
Marriage: 11 Feb 1843 St John, Preston, Lancs.
Joseph Monks - (X), 22 Mechanic Bachelor of Park Road
Betty Fryer - (X), 21 Piecer Spinster of High St
Groom's Father: Late Thomas Monks, Carder
Bride's Father: Late Phoenix Fryer, Weaver
Witness: James Cutts; Mary Ann Gregson
Married by Banns by: C. Richson Curate
Register: Marriages 1841 - 1843, Page 134, Entry 267
Source: LDS Film 93993
There are, of course, a lot of babies named Fryer who died in the relevant period. One was Benjamin, whose address was also High Street, Betty's address at her marriage. But there was a 20-year gap and so it's possible, but in no way certain that he belonged to Felix and Francis:
Burial: 13 Dec 1820 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England
Benjamin Fryer -
Abode: High St. Preston
Buried by: M. Mark Curate
Register: Burials 1816 - 1822, Page 39, Entry 275
Source: LDS Film 1278755
That bankruptcy is a super spot! It makes me wonder if Frances' had had the Trafford dosh on her marriage or if there was more to come. Back to deciphering the will.
I wonder if we'll get back in synch!
50 tomorrow so may take a break for the day (unlikely!).
Hello again, I think your timeline of Humphrey to be spot on- I also think the chance of two Humphreys to be pretty limited (although Livesey is a fairly common name there).
John Traffords' will (he d.1815) is on ancestry (thankfully). As is typical it's very hard to read! I'm thinking of printing the whole thing off and seeing if I can better transcribe it that way. Oh for some more wills- Henry, Humphrey...
Thanks v. much again for your input!
Evan was supposedly Joseph's great-grandfather - sorry! Getting carried away again!
See also a short article under https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/16646/page/1900/data.pdf
Couldn't resist having a quick look. It seems that Felix Fryer, a cotton manufacturer of Preston, went bankrupt in 1811. (see: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/1922/page/364/data.pdf). Seems to have ben a hobby in the family!!
Another little bit of circumstantial evidence pointing to your illustrious ancestry :) -
I suppose you noticed that Humphrey's son Joseph called his first son with Ann Thompson "John Evan Livesey"? If you remember,the Peter you mentioned said that Evan Livesey was Henry Livesey's father. Now I don't think the name Evan was given much in Lancashire at this time unless it had some particular significance for the family.Evan was supposedly Joseph's great-great-grandfather. In the 1869 directory John Evan Livesey is listed as a "hammerman" living in Anderton Street,Lower Ince. I suppose that's a smith??. He married Elizabeth Melling.
So, no more for now. I want to do a bit of reading for a change.
For Gaskells read Fryers! I've tried to find anything about Felix/Frances after their marriage in 1805. I've got three possible children- Peter b.c.1820, Betty/Betsy c.1821 and Henry c.1825. There must/should be many more unless Frances dies and Felix remarried? There's a Felix Fryer mentioned in Poll Books in 1832. However, if we think Humphreys family cascaded downhill I think this lot did it first. I wonder what happened to the money they were left by John Trafford? Anyway, this lot are in Preston!
Funnily enough, I do have Gaskell ancestry, but not through those marriages. My great-great-grandmother Elizabeth Gaskell married someone called George Litherland.Their daughter Jane married Richard Molyneux, my great-grandfather. My Gaskells were originally from Upholland, where the name is extremely common indeed.
I think Ann Kenyon originated from Hardybutts. She died there in 1810. I haven't gone into this further, but I thought that perhaps the Ellen below, who died in Hardybutts, could have been her mother. She would have been born about 1752, which would make the age appropriate, considering Ann was born about 1780. Ellen's death was in 1833. John Trafford lived in Hardybutts after his marriage to Alice in 1833. Possibly he stayed with his grandmother and continued living at her house after Humphrey married Sarah. Or perhaps he just took over her house after her death. Anyway, Ellen was a Roman Catholic and the burial service was at St John's, in the same year as John Trafford's marriage.
Burial: 3 Dec 1833 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
Ellen Kenyon - Widow of Wm. Kenyon
Died: 30 Nov
Age: 81 years
Cause of Death: Old Age
Notes: Dues pd.
Source: Original register at LRO
Couldn't find husband William's burial. perhaps this was also at Ince.
Why do I have the feeling that John Trafford may have been adopted by the Liveseys? There was one born in Croston in 1805, who seems to disappear (He doesn't seem to be connected to the rich Traffords).Someone on ancestry has him dying in Horncastle in 1881, but I think this is nonsense. If you crosscheck with the censuses of 1851, 1861 and 1871, he is there and states he was born in Gloulceby (in Lincolnshire?).
When was Frances Trafford's brother's will drawn up? What does it say? Do you think there was a rift with the family afterwards? Perhaps Ann or Sarah or both were not regarded as being appropriate marriage partners.
But Humphrey does seem to be Frances Trafford's son. There don't seem to be any other Humphrey Liveseys around, apart from a much younger one in Yorkshire.
So Humphrey was born between 1778 and 1780, had lost his mother, step-mother and father by 1795 and shortly after he had left Ormskirk or Croston and was apprenticed to the land surveyor James Leigh in Parbold. In 1804, six months before he himself married, he was a witness at the marriage of John Bullen of Winwick to Ann Eccleston of Croston at the church of St Michael and All Angels, Croston. He married in Wigan in 1805, was a godfather at a christening at St John's in 1809. He was probably living in Hardybutts in 1810 (at Ann's death). He married Sarah in 1811 and in the 1825 and 1828 directories, he was in Manchester Road and Birkett Bank. Both were not far from Hardybutts.Manchester Road is closer to Ince and was probably where Humphrey moved with Sarah as the first three children with her were baptised at Ince Hall chapel. In 1831 Humphrey dies. Two daughters marry in Hindley (further than Ince) in the 1830s, but by 1841 second wife Sarah is in Standishgate, Wigan with three daughters and a granddaughter.
I like to track movements. Sometimes it helps to find out more. I'm going to see whether I can find out anything more about Ellen Kenyon, but it is difficult with Catholic records online.
I've been wondering if Humphrey's 'master' James Leigh may hold further clues. However, except for another apprentice in Parbold in 1796, I've found nothing. Back to the drawing board!
Incidentally, I did note two Gaskell/Molyneux weddings in Wigan (1835/1860)! Don't suppose there is a link- Gaskell seems a fairly common name in the town.
I had about an hour ago noticed the other Henry Gaskell, the ironmonger, and looked up the children with Alice Ambler. It's strange that Henry Gaskell was also a witness at Humphrey's wedding. I would have thought that Humphrey would have brought his own witness with him. But perhaps you're right and they just happened to be there. The second official witness doesn't seem to have been present.
I think I got carried away because Henry Gaskell, attorney, had those Catholic connections. Perhaps the standing of a land surveyor was also not as high as we think.
Anyway, it was an interesting "red herring".
No more for tonight. Hope the records of St Mary's are informative.
Sadly, I think your Gaskell quest was a bit of a red herring if more interesting than the actual story! Henry was an Ironmonger from Millgate- he and Alice had (at least) 7 children 1806-1814 baptised at All Saints. I wonder if Humphrey witnessed the Gaskell marriage simply because he was there?
Like you, I think we're nearing online limits. I await the next lucky break!
I got a bit sidetracked today reading about Carthusian monks!! Now what has that got to do with Humphrey? Well, I'd been wondering whether his friend Henry Gaskell might provide clues. I don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that this is the Henry Gaskell who was a solicitor in Wigan (1825 directory) and lived at Southworth House. I didn't know where this was and so I googled it and up came an old book with a list of Carthusians in the 19th century and one of them was John Gaskell (1826 - date of admission??) "son of Henry Gaskell of Southworth House, Wigan", who was born in 1811 and died in 1837. You don't get much more Roman Catholic than that. Also the marriage of Henry's daughter Caroline-Margaret to John Fowden Hodson of Heskin Hall was announced in April 1842 n The Gentleman's Magazine. A week before Henry Gaskell himself had married as a widower.His spouse was Mary Ann Orrett, widow of the former Rector of Standish. Presumably she was not Catholic, which under the circumstanes seems strange. I mean, his son was in a very strict Catholic monastic order! Anyway, no more clues regarding Humphrey. I can't, of course, swear that this was "his" Henry Gaskell, but I think it likely, and it was interesting reading.
I also think there's a limit to what you can do online now. I read that the baptism records for St Mary's RC church from 1818 are on microfilm at Wigan History Shop. Let's hope Geraldine has time to look next week and can help you further.
Humphrey's first wife was buried at All Saints, but Humphrey and Sarah could be together. I can't find her burial, although St Mary's is a possibility.
Yes, the people who transcribe are wonderful and we shouldn't get too annoyed about mistakes. You go cross-eyed after a couple of hours of looking at microfilms. And the handwriting is sometimes very difficult to decipher.
I still can't get over how "downhill" (I don't mean that nastily) Humphrey's second family went. I wonder whether he went bankrupt like his father. Who knows??