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Posted by LEP1950 on 27th January 2015  

I got a bit sidetracked today reading about Carthusian monks!! Now what has that got to do with Humphrey? Well, I'd been wondering whether his friend Henry Gaskell might provide clues. I don't know for sure, but there's a good chance that this is the Henry Gaskell who was a solicitor in Wigan (1825 directory) and lived at Southworth House. I didn't know where this was and so I googled it and up came an old book with a list of Carthusians in the 19th century and one of them was John Gaskell (1826 - date of admission??) "son of Henry Gaskell of Southworth House, Wigan", who was born in 1811 and died in 1837. You don't get much more Roman Catholic than that. Also the marriage of Henry's daughter Caroline-Margaret to John Fowden Hodson of Heskin Hall was announced in April 1842 n The Gentleman's Magazine. A week before Henry Gaskell himself had married as a widower.His spouse was Mary Ann Orrett, widow of the former Rector of Standish. Presumably she was not Catholic, which under the circumstanes seems strange. I mean, his son was in a very strict Catholic monastic order! Anyway, no more clues regarding Humphrey. I can't, of course, swear that this was "his" Henry Gaskell, but I think it likely, and it was interesting reading.

I also think there's a limit to what you can do online now. I read that the baptism records for St Mary's RC church from 1818 are on microfilm at Wigan History Shop. Let's hope Geraldine has time to look next week and can help you further.

Humphrey's first wife was buried at All Saints, but Humphrey and Sarah could be together. I can't find her burial, although St Mary's is a possibility.

Yes, the people who transcribe are wonderful and we shouldn't get too annoyed about mistakes. You go cross-eyed after a couple of hours of looking at microfilms. And the handwriting is sometimes very difficult to decipher.

I still can't get over how "downhill" (I don't mean that nastily) Humphrey's second family went. I wonder whether he went bankrupt like his father. Who knows??

L.

Posted by Oliver Slade on 27th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

I've looked at Louisa's burial on Wigan World- it does seem very likely that she was Sarah's daughter. Shame she didn't hang on until the census, poor little mite.
As for the error it does go to show that we are only as good as the transcriber, whenever that may have been. We'd be pretty rubbish without them though....

Posted by LEP1950 on 27th January 2015  

Saw the original marriage entry for Sarah. James Bolton Barlow, husband of Teresa, was definitely not dead at this time. So who is the James Barlow mentioned? It is, of course, possible that Sarah had referred to James as her father, but meant her biological father was dead. We don't know how the questions were formulated. Sarah signed with a cross and was obviously not very well-educated.
She had probably, by the way, had a daughter Louisa, born 1859, who died in March 1861. The address at the burial of little Louisa Livesey was Egerton Street, the address of Sarah when she married.
Now where did James Livesey on Lancashire OPC come from? It just goes to show that you have to crosscheck everthing, as far as it is posssible, with the orignal. There are even discrepancies betweeen the Bishop's transcripts and the original in places. Where humans are involved, mistakes are always possible.

L.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

James Bolton Barlow died in 1876, Teresa in 1886. In 1881, she was visiting her nephew Henry Green and presumably helping out after the birth of a new baby as she is listed as "Visiting/housekeeper".Don't know who Sarah's father was and since she was born "out of wedlock", it definitely won't be on a birth certificate in 1838!! So packing in for tonight, but will keep thinking.

L.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

I see Louisa died in 1853 when Sarah was 15. She was probably taken in then by Louisa's sister Teresa and her husband. Her official name was, of course, Livesey. She may have said her "father" was James Barlow, because he had moreorless adopted her. My grandmother did the same, putting the name of her step-father on her marriage certificate as father. She was only seven when her father died, but her mother remarried several years later and the step-father hadn't even arrived in Wigan at the time of my grandmother's birth. So I exonerate James Barlow if he was on the marriage certificate!! But the entry says James Livesey??? Strange.

L.

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Me again! The actual marriage certificate is available on ancestry with James Barlow as father.
Would love to visit Wigan; I live in South Lincolnshire so would take some planning (and time).

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

This is getting confusing. This is what I found on Lancs OPC:

Marriage: 22 Sep 1860 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Robert Wilson - 23, Boiler Maker, Bachelor, Clayton Street
Sarah Livsey - (X), 22, Spinster, Egerton Street
Groom's Father: Edmund Wilson, Dispensing Chemist
Bride's Father: James Livsey, Deceased
Witness: Peter Rigby; Phoebe Thompson, (X)
Married by Banns by: Jas. Cronshaw Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1852 - 1861, Page 213, Entry 426
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

The area is admittedly where Teresa Livesey and James Barlow were. But they were married in 1836 and Sarah was born in 1838. So did James Barlow have Sarah with his sister-in-law? But in the entry above, James Livesey is given as the father. It could be another Sarah. Where did you find the father's name as Barlow?

L.

Posted by geraldine long on 26th January 2015  

I haven't put the photos on yet only recently found them again whilst decorating but will do so

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

I think I have a picture of Sarah's (the grand-daughter)life. It looks like she reverts to Livesey presumably after her mothers death and marries Robert Wilson at St. Thomas in 1860. Her fathers name was given as James Barlow (!) although he is recorded as deceased.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Geraldine, I'd love to see the convent photos. Have you posted them already? If not, could you? I certainly remember the straw boaters and how proud we were in the first form when we got to wear a uniform. It's so sad the school closed. It was a really good education that working class children got there. Memories, memories....

Yes, Oliver, you should visit Wigan, although it has changed a lot. I sometimes don't know where I am in relation to the old town. It's certainly cleaner, but it's lost a lot of its character. That's something you only appreciate when you're getting older. I don't think I'll be in Wigan again before April/May as I was there in November, but if you haven't found out more by then, I'll go to Ormskirk library. It's not far.

L.

Posted by geraldine long on 26th January 2015  geddtanner@blueyonder.co.uk 

For Oliver Slade
Had thought I might try St Mary's records
( again on micro film) when I get a chance but might not be until next week. St Mary's did I believe have a grave yard at some time in the past but no signs of it remain.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

I've been thinking about John Trafford Livesey. Ann and Humphrey don't seem to have had any more children who survived. I've looked through the marriage and burial records. Presumably they would have turned up somewhere even if you don't know where they were baptised. After all, marriages had to take place in an Anglican church at that time. When a surname is the middle name, it is usually the maiden name of the mother or, in the case of illegitimate children, the surname of the biological father. Occasionally, I've come across it as the grandmother's surname, especially if it was a famous one. But I've been wondering whether Humphrey and Ann couldn't have children and whether John was a family member they adopted - a John Trafford. Peter didn't seem to find anything out about him. He did have a baptism date for Humphrey - supposedly 1778, the year Henry and Frances married.
In the Preston newspaper clipping, it's suggested that Humphrey was born in 1781. I wouldn't worry too much about this discrepancy. On the other hand, the Marriage Bonds and Allegations point to a birth in 1784, as Humphrey is listed as beind 21 in 1805. I think, though, that the 21 might just indicate that he was of full age.

I've noticed that the witness (apart from the official witness William Bancks) at Humphrey's marriage to Ann was Henry Gaskell. This was the man whose witness Humphrey also was, AND they both got married on the same day - April 25th 1805. I don't know whether this helps any further, but we'll see.

L.

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Sarah, Humphrey's wife, was at Bank Yard, Standishgate on the 1841 census with her three younger daughters and, presumably, grand-daughter (although she was young enough to have had another one herself!?).
Those were the marriages I had for the elder sisters. My ancestor, Elizabeth, married George Haslam at Haigh 14.6.1841.

Posted by geraldine long on 26th January 2015  geddtanner@blueyonder.co.uk 

Yes the chapel was RC belonging to Ince Hall situated off Manchester Road , used from late 1700s until 1818 when the family moved away. The problem with the records as much as them being in Latin is the fact that they are hand written !
Glad you enjoyed the walking day photos and if you are who I think you are,I have some from the convent as well mainly class photos but a couple of walking days complete with staw boaters.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Sarah Livesey was Louisa's daughter. You'll find her as Sarah Myers in the 1851 census. I shouldn't think he was her biological father as John and Louisa only married in 1846. he was a widower and already had a son called Lawrence.
L.

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Linda- exciting isn't it! Actually, I don't think I've ever been to Wigan but am rather grateful to it now!
I wonder if the parish of St. Mary may have some answers (founded 1819)? I wonder (also) if it actually had a graveyard? I can't see anything to help online as yet.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Oliver, Sarah is presumably the granddaughter, an illegitimate daughter of one of the ones still at home. The birth registers give the maiden name of the mother as Livesey.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

After Humphrey's death, the family seem to have been in Hindley. I take this to be Mary Ann's marriage:

Marriage: 20 Jul 1834 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Henry Green - Bachelor, Wigan Parish
Mary Ann Livesey - Spinster, Wigan Parish
Witness: William Baron; Robert Grime
Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill Incumbent Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 78, Entry 234
Source: LDS Film 93751

My reasoning is that Henry was a brickmaker & Beer retailer and son Henry also a brickmaker. At the time of her death (1881), Mary Ann was living in Pemberton. She left 581 pounds in her will. Executors were son Henry and Joseph Livesey (her brother presumably).

Sister Teresa also married in Hindley:

Marriage: 12 Jun 1836 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
James Barlow - Bachelor, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Teresa Livesey - (X), Spinster, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Witness: William Mason; Robert Grime
Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill Incumbent Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 100, Entry 299
Source: LDS Film 93751

The Peter you mention has the spouse's name as John Bolton Barlow. I don't know about the "Bolton" but I have checked several records and the Christian name was definitely James. I'll go into it again later.

Have just seen James's christening in 1812. His name was James Bolton Barlow. Teresa,despite her very Catholic name, seems to have turned her back on Catholicism (or at least the backs of her children!). The couple lived in the Wallgate area and all the children were baptised at All Saints. The entry of one in 1855 is immediately below that of my great-grandfather in the photocopied parish registers on ancestry.

LEP 1950

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Thank you Geraldine, that is smashing!
Only 4 more to find! John (Trafford) c.1808, Joseph (c.1820), Elizabeth (c.1824) and Margaret (c.1828). There is also a mysterious Sarah with the family on the 1841 census aged 3.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Geraldine,
You were in my class at primary school. Have looked at quite a few walking day photos you've posted. Thanks for that! I haven't lived in Wigan since 1972 and only visit about twice a year. It's fantaastic of you to look up those births. Was Ince Hall a RC chapel? Or was Sarah (Humphrey's second wife) CofE? If you find any more records, just copy the Latin. I did 'A' level Latin and can translate. I love helping on these difficult cases. I have my own brick walls.

If you're still in touch with anyone from primary school, say 'Hello' from Linda.

Oliver - we're closing in on them!!!

Linda