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Oliver, and hello Linda I think you are probably correct in that we may be looking for something that doesn't exist. However a little niggle at the back of my mind kept asking about the Winwick link ie Humphrey was witness at the marriage of John Bullen of Winwick in Ormskirk and at his marriage to Sarah in Winwick they both claimed to be of this parish. Is this the link or purely supposition that John Trafford of Croston and Trafford ,Grandson of John Trafford of Croston and Catherine Culcheth,had inherited Culcheth hall Winwick in 1794,
Maybe that the prisons might be Starngeways Manchester Or Walton prison Liverpool. Some inmates can be found
I have a marriage record from 1903 and the occupation of the bride's father is not clear but looks like "Prison". If someone from Wigan was in prison in 1903, any idea which prison it might have been (not aware that there was one in Wigan itself at that time).
Geraldine- Thanks again for your efforts! Perhaps we are looking for something that isn't there. As we stand I think we can say that, to the best of our belief, Humphrey Livesey, Land Surveyor of Wigan, was the son of Frances Trafford. Which is where I want to be!!!
Thanks for looking, Geraldine. I think Humphrey and Sarah were probably buried at St Mary's. I read somewhere that the first priest left hardly any records, but that was in the years after 1819. Why there don't seem to be any burial records before 1849, I don't know.
I like going to the History Shop. I always visit when I'm over. Mind you, I haven't discovered anything new about my family for years. But I read yesterday that from the summer of 2015 all the Catholic church records of Ireland that have survived will be available for free through the National Library of Ireland. So who knows what will turn up.
Hello Linda and Oliver
Had a couple of hours in History shop, one of the ladies working there insists that Standish Hall records are combined on microfilm with St Maries which looking at dates etc is probably correct but didn't find any thing not a Livesey to be found There are apparently some very early records from Standish Hall separate on CD but usage needs to be booked in advance.
Found what is possibly burial of Josephs 1st wife Ann in 1853 at St Wilfreds so had a look there, there are some Liveseys buried there but no Sarah nor Humphrey.
Children of Joseph 1st marriage to Ann nee Thompson in case names help in search:-
John Evan 1841
Joseph and William 1843 died 1843
Sarah Ann 1847
and Joseph 1851 interestingly the 3 younger ones were all baptised on 25/4/1854 by which time Joseph had married Sarah.
FOR JOHN MARSH.
There seem to have been several baptisms to Joseph Marsh, Weaver, of Scoles and Mary, daughter of Hugh and Mary Bullock at All Saints, Wigan. Hugh 18.7.1790, Betty 28.7.1793, Mary 17.2.1796, Sally 9.2.1798 and Charles 16.3.1800 amongst others. These are all on ancestry; if you don't have access try the Lancashire on-line project.
Geraldine, I've found out there was a Catholic chapel at Standish Hall at this time. Baptisms are online, but the burials are on microfilm at Wigan. Do you think you could check March 1842 for Sarah's burial? I really think she was probably buried at St Mary's, but where are the burials before 1849?
I think that must be a different Sarah. The one we are looking for died in 1842.
I am trying to locate a lady in Wigan ,she was looking for Patton/Gill family I can help her I am a Gill those two families are my relations
thanks Mary O'Dowd
looking for the family of Joseph Marsh who married Mary Bullock on Nov 01 1787 at Wigan Lancashire can any one Help
Add on to previous marriage I think Joseph may have married two sisters. 1st marriage at St Davids Haigh Ann Thompson daughter of John occupation Smith
2nd marriage to Sarah Thompson daughter of John occupation Forgeman
Oliver and linda will try to get to history shop sometime in the week.
A bit ahead of myself, I found
Thomas Humphrey Livesey Birth July/Aug/Sept 1859 Died 1901 age 40yrs Wigan
Son of Joseph (son of Humphrey) who married Sarah Thompson at St Mary The Virgin Deane 7/11/1853
1881 census Joseph 60yrs Sarah 59yrs Mary -anne 23yrs Margaret 21yrs Thomas 19yrs .
Thomas occupation gven as farmers son in Lathom Newburgh Lancs
Re Sarah Livesey
burial All Saints Church Hindley age 65 1oth September 1856, abode Hindley
Could Sarah possibly have been buried at St Benedict's RC in Hindley? Burial records from 1836 to 1900 are in Wigan. I know you looked at the baptism records, Geraldine. Any chance of looking for Sarah's burial in 1842 in the burial records?? She died in March 1842.
Just read that St Mary's, Standishgate was founded in 1819 and did at one time have a graveyard. However, burial records only seem to exist from 1849-1884. Don't know whether there were no earlier burials or whether the records have simply disappeared.
I think she could well have been buried with Humphrey. But where? Wigan cemetery at Lower Ince has a RC part. I don't know exactly when the cemetery opened, but the register has been transcribed from 1857. Before that, Catholics were sometimes buried at All Saints (see, for example, Ann Livesey, nee Kenyon). With the exception of St John's and St Mary's, both in Standishgate, the other Catholic churches in Wigan were founded around or after 1850.Don't know whether St John's originally had a burial ground, but the Liveseys were not buried there anyway. Perhaps the Museum of Wigan Life might give you more information about burial possibilities.
Backtracking a bit...
If Sarah Livesey died 17.3.1842 at Standishgate where could she be buried?
We know it's not All Saints or St. John's and we think she was RC. Where does that leave us?
Nothing to report today re children of William/Betty Eccles nor anything of George and Elizabeth. I suppose the burial 25.8.1840 of George Rowlinson at All Saints (aged 53) could be relevant.
There is also a George Rowlinson transported from Lancaster Assizes in 1829 which is fun if not very likely relevant!
William Warburton father of JennetWarburton Married Margaret Baldwin 28th April 1749
St Mary's church Radcliffe
Just to finish off the family although it's been discarded. Other son was also called Thomas and he died as a baby in 1795. The two little girls Martha and Margaret died soon after the move to Scholes.
Have just read what Oliver wrote. Well, at least you now know that Sarah is not the daughter of William and Martha and not the daughter of John and Jane. These were, I think, the only other Rawlinson (etc.) families in Wigan at the time. I've high hopes for William and Betty!!!