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Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Posted by LEP1950 on 31st October 2015  

Posted by Yvonne Lyon on 31st October 2015  

Hi Linda,

I rang Nigel and we chatted for an hour about the two families and he has boxes full of photos and letters saved by his gran (daughter of Thomas Crawford) he's not looked at. Yet.

I have no information as to why Thomas was buried with his first wife. I think his second wife possibly had little control over events. Lilian Crawford didn't die until the 1980s, but Gladys died as baby.

I know Thomas' father and grandfather were born in County Louth. Is this where you placed them? And I have a list of sibling names (probably incomplete) but not the name of actual towns they came from. Do you have more than this?

Thanks again and for the Methodist link. Yvonne

Posted by Anne Ince on 25th October 2015  parkroadding@gmail.com 

Hope you enjoyed your break. Thank you for looking re Baden Arnold. I have also drawn a blank with Baden and there are too many William Charles to follow.My Grandmother Martha never married Charles until 1930 when my Dad was 20yrs old!! Wondering if William died round about that time.Hope Baden had a happy life if he survived. Now back to AndertonThank you for all your help

Posted by susan on 22nd October 2015  

Hi Linda,
Thanks for all the information. I especially found your relative living nearby interesting also that most Irish from certain areas lived near each other. I have seen the Michael Rafferty as a soldier and chelsea pensioner but on Josephs marriage it says he is a weaver so do not think this is him at all. I have also followed the Joseph born to Denis but again we know his father was Michael. I have assumed his mother could be Mary as his sister was Mary as was his daughter and it carried on through the family but also know being catholic could be religous. Im going to start looking at the new records online for Ireland and assume they might have been from Drogheda. Where the parents were I dont know as like you say on the 1851 census all three children are lodgers and quite young. I know all my family down from him and also visited where they are all buried. Grandad was Thomas Beetham who played rugby for wigan in the 1920,s.

Thanks for your information I shall start looking more into all of it.


Posted by LEP1950 on 21st October 2015  


Just before I go to bed, I wanted to mention the fact that a certain Michael Rafferty, born 1799 in Drogheda, Louth served in the 28th foot regiment as a soldier and was discharged in 1833 aged 34. I have no idea whether this is of any signficance and you may already know about it. The record is at the National Archives in Kew and apparently on "findmypast.co.uk".
On "ancestry" there are several mentions of the same Michael Rafferty in the Chelsea Pensioners Records, but these are only lists. On one it does say that Michael was wounded and in the General Hospital. But there are no personal details. If you are a member of findmypast or know someone who is, there may be more information on the record there. I'm sure he wasn't the only Michael Raferty in Louth, but you never know...

Looking again at the 1851 census, I noticed that Joseph Rafferty was next door to a Bernard Doran in John Street. I have a direct ancestor called Michael Doran and I thought that Bernard may have been a brother or cousin when I was researching the Doran family a few years ago. I know that for some reason which I can't remember now I linked them with Drogheda and even bought a book about the plight of the weavers in Drogheda around 1800. I've heard that people from the same area of Ireland tended to congregate in the same streets of Wigan. I also remember that the main destinations of the Drogheda weavers were Wigan, Manchester and Barnsley. So maybe a Drogheda link here (?)

I know that Joseph and siblings were listed as boarders, but perhaps they were in some way related to the family they were living with. After all James and Mary were quite young.


Posted by LEP1950 on 21st October 2015  

For Susan,

Well, your ancestor is pretty consistent saying that he was born in Wigan. It does not necessarily have to be true. Many Irish people said they were from the place they were living in. My great-great-grandmother alternates. Sometimes she's born in Wigan and sometimes she's born in Ireland (I think this is true). Of course, it isn't impossible that Joseph was born in Wigan and that the family went back to Ireland temporarily. Anyway if James is telling the truth and he is from Drogheda, then you might like to search the Catholic records that still exist for this area. Have a look at http://registers.nli.ie/ .
There are two Drogheda parishes online. Unfortunately you have to go through the whole microfilm yourself as there is no index, but the records are free of charge. I don't have time at the moment as I'm away until Monday. You might be lucky and be able to find something.

Have you searched the reords of St John and those of St Mary in the History Shop in Wigan? I don't know when baptisms at St Patrick's started. The Raffertys were Catholics. I thought I'd discovered Michael Rafferty, listed as Michael Rafter, in 1841, but he was far too old and there were no children with him.

There are some crazy things on ancestry. Some people have Michael Rafferty having children in New Zealand, Ireland, Wigan and the US - moreorless all at the same time!! I'm really wary regarding public trees on ancestry. Oh, somone has also apparently found Joseph's baptism. It doesn't matter that the father's name was Denis and that it took place in Liverpool. At least the child was called Joseph!!!

A big difficulty is that we also presume everything is true that we read in the records of this time, but many people were living under pseudonyms and covering their tracks by giving false information. I've found quite a few bigamists, but thankfully not in my direct line!

Good luck! Please let me know how you get on. If you're no further I'll browse around again on Monday.


Posted by susan on 21st October 2015  

I have a Joseph Rafferty born about 1834 who says he was born in wigan on every census, i cannot find him on the 1841 census he just appears on the 1851 one, I have suspisions that he might have been born in Ireland as later on his brother James does say he was born in Drogheda? Joseph married a Jane Dandy I have all the details in my tree on ancestry its just I cannot find births for any of them, Joseph is in wigan with his sister mary and brother james but no parents, although his father is named as Michael on his marriage. Any ideas as to how I can find out where he was born would be much appreciated.

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st October 2015  

Hi again Linda,

you're right that there are a number of baptisms in the Ashton area to Joseph, with Jane's name getting thrown into the records in some of the later ones. I originally found the numbering of the later children, and those small gaps of months between some, to be quite useful in establishing who belonged to Joseph and Jane and who did not (did this using their marriage date of 1799 also, though under the common assumption that all children were born after marriage, and the more genealogy I do, the more I see that children born outside wedlock were not altogether uncommon even back then). That said, children to single mothers in my research have always seemed to have the mother's surname and mother listed at their baptism, which is not the case for the children listed under "Joseph" when the search is run.

Originally (and I'm still leaning towards it) I had always been happy with the Joseph and Jane Jameson marriage as my Ellen's parents. Interesting that you threw in the family trees influencing each other, as it was seeing another's family tree containing Ellen (becomes Pimblett) and most if not all of the children we see when we search for baptisms of Joseph's kids that caused me any initial doubt to begin with. Ruling Ellen Pimblett nee Birchall out as a child of Joseph and Jane by establishing her parents and place of origin would be great as it would really confirm for me I have found the right parents for my Ellen (clearly both were not from Joseph and Jane Jameson - as the family tree I found had recorded - as they both reached full age, so no early deaths of an Ellen here).

Some searches that I perform turn up an Ellen Birchall b. 20 Dec 1805 to Joseph and Jane nee Jenkinson. I have found nothing to corroborate these details.

Thanks for the point on the Dennis', I had noticed the name twice but never thought to make the connection that maybe Ellen Pimblett named her son after a deceased brother - if I follow then that might mean Jane Jameson is definitely NOT my Ellen's mother, as I am certain that my Ellen marries a Joseph Lambert not a Wm Pimblett.

Re. baptisms etc., once I've moved into Parish records I've only ever really used LOPC as I'm extremely unfamiliar with resources beyond this point, am not familiar with the idea that LOPC only contains baptisms for certain denominations of Christianity, etc. Though I am picking up on some of that from my perusing of this site in recent weeks, seeing your responses to others. I had always thought all baptisms performed in Lancashire were on that site. I guess my amateur-ness is starting to show and this likely explains why once I get to anything before about 1820, I hit nothing but brick walls - like now - where I want to go futher on Ellen's line but it's especially important I get it right (it's my direct line).

Thank you again for the information and points in your posts


Posted by LEP1950 on 21st October 2015  

Hi JBrown86,

I've been looking at the baptism records at St Thomas the Martyr. Actually there were about three Joseph Birchalls having children christened around the same time. I also looked at some trees on ancestry. It's quite funny. Some seem to have all the children associated with the same Joseph despite the fact that there were no more than a few months between the births (birth dates were often given). I presume that Ellen's parents were Joseph Birchall and Jane Jameson. At some christenings they are both mentioned and the number of the child. For Alice it says "eighth child and fourth daughter". Counting back, Jane must have been the third daughter, Ellen the second and Mary the first. With the sons it's more difficult to decide who belonged to who. There are definitely more than four with a father called Joseph. I could only find one Ellen, born around 1805. Most people on ancestry, perhaps under the influence of each other, have this Ellen marrying William Pimblett. Interesting is that Joseph and Jane definitely had a son named Dennis who died in 1820 aged 19. Ellen and William Pimblett also had a "Dennis". I don't think the name was so common around this time.

On the other hand, you know that Ellen Pimblett died in Ashton in 1829 aged 24, but you don't know whether she was born there. She could have come into the area at some time before her marriage.

What I also want to ask is whether you have found baptisms of the children of your Ellen and Joseph? Have you considered the possibility that they may have been non-Conformists or Catholics? They would in these cases have had to marry in a CofE church in the 1830s and often they were buried in the church graveyard, but the children were usually baptised in their own church. I wondered why Ellen had called her illegitimate child Teresa. This is a name I associate more, especially at that time, with Roman Catholics. Also Teresa's marriage registration code in 1851 seems to indicate that she didn't marry in a CoE church. If your Ellen Birchall had been baptised outside the Church of England, then you're unlikely to find the baptism on LOPC or on familysearch or on ancestry as there are not many Catholic records online.

Perhaps it's a path you might want to pursue.


Posted by LEP1950 on 20th October 2015  

Teresa Roberts nee Birchall is in the 1861 census with her husband Henry, a carpenter born in Blackburn and family. For some reason she has become "Tereson" (!). As well as four children with Henry (later there are another two daughters listed in the 1871 census), daughter Elizabeth from the 1851 census with Ellen Lambert is with her. She is now using Henry's name, which does not necessarily mean that Henry was her father. But she married under the name Elizabeth Roberts on June 22nd 1870 at St Mary, St Denys and St George in Manchester. Husband was William Davies, a 21-year-old labourer. There is a scan of the marriage registration on ancestry.

Teresa or Theresa was already widowed by 1871 and was now keeping a beerhouse in Cheetham, Manchester.

All this doesn't answer your original query, but it might still be of interest.


Posted by LEP1950 on 20th October 2015  

I don't think I had really taken in your message as I was just browsing the site to see whether Yvonne had answered. I was due to go out and did a quick search with a death date of 1823 for one of the Ellens in my head. Of course it's difficult to prove anything that's not in black and white. Indications are sometimes the names of the children. Is one named after the grandfather? But this doesn't really seem to be of much use here since the potential grandfather and the father are both Josephs. Of course it isn't "proof" anyway. I'll have a really good think to see whether I can come up with anything.


Posted by JBrown86 on 20th October 2015  

Hi LEP1950,
thanks for these hints.

The "other Ellen" died in 1829.
I think my original post is worded poorly (I remember thinking that as soon as I posted); I have no problem accepting Joseph Lambert as my Ellen's husband and their marriage in 1835, I am trying to decipher if the Ellen Birchall baptism performed in early 1805 (birth 23 Dec 1804)in Ashton is my Ellen (Joseph's wife) or the "other Ellen" (m. Pimblett, d. 1829).
Thanks for the info re. Teresa and a potential grandchild. Will add to Tree.

Posted by JBrown86 on 20th October 2015  

Hi LEP1950,
thanks for these hints.

The "other Ellen" died in 1829.
I think my original post is worded poorly (I remember thinking that as soon as I posted); I have no problem accepting Joseph Lambert as my Ellen's husband and their marriage in 1835, I am trying to decipher if the Ellen Birchall baptism performed in early 1805 (birth 23 Dec 1804)in Ashton is my Ellen (Joseph's wife) or the "other Ellen" (m. Pimblett, d. 1829).
Thanks for the info re. Teresa and a potential grandchild. Will add to Tree.

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th October 2015  

Hi JB Brown,

Living with the Lamberts in 1851 was a granddaughter named Elizabeth Birchall, aged 3. This made me suspet that Ellen had had an illegitimate child. The 1841 census shows a Theresa Birchall aged 13 living with Ellen Lambert. This was very possibly
Ellen's daughter. If she was and was the mother of Elizabeth, then your Ellen must have been the one who married Joseph Lambert because Teresa was born in 1828 and the other Ellen died in 1823. Of course, Teresa may possibly have been Ellen's sister. I have found a marriage of a Teresa Burchall to a Henry Roberts in 1851, but unfortunately the marriage is a "ROW...." one, i.e. not in a Co E church and more difficult to find online. I have to go out now but will do some crosschecking tonight.


Posted by JBrown86 on 20th October 2015  jbrown.toros@gmail.com 

Good morning,

I'm looking for help with my ancestor Ellen Birchall. She marries a Joseph Lambert in 1835 and has five kids including Benjamin.

She passes away at age 76 in 1881 (Ashton), therefore born in 1804/1805 time (also in Ashton, all four censuses she appears on are consistent with this).

I'm trying to establish Ellen's father/parents, specifically, whether it is Joseph as per this baptism

Baptism: 13 Jan 1805 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England
Ellen Birchall - Daughter of Joseph Birchall
Born: 23 Dec 1804
Baptised by: John Woodrow - Minister
Register: Baptisms 1765-1809, Page 117, Entry 6
Source: FHL British Film 1885657

or whether this baptism is for a different Ellen Birchall, specifically the one that marries a William Pimblett in 1823 and passes away on the same day she gives birth to a child in 1829. She shares birth year(s) and place.

Anyone that knows anything or could offer help, I'd be very grateful


Posted by LEP1950 on 18th October 2015  

Yvonne (and Nigel):
A last time for tonight - I think (am pretty sure) I've found out where Thomas Crawford's ancestors came from in Ireland. Do you want me to tell you what I think and how I worked it out? Or have you got this information already from your own research or family tales? I don't want to repeat what you already know.


Posted by LEP1950 on 18th October 2015  

Hi Yvonne,
Sorry - not 1846 but 1946!!! Why does one never see these typos until they're published ?!!


Posted by LEP1950 on 18th October 2015  

For Yvonne:

No, unfortunately I haven't found any records of Thomas Crawford being involved with the Methodist church apart from his baptism etc. Don't know whether you know this site or whether it's of any help:


What I am wondering about is that you said Thomas Crawford died in 1946 while he was resident in Bolton. But according to the records I've seen, he died in February 1846 at Spencer Road, Wigan. OK, this was possibly the address of one of his daughters, but he is also listed as being buried with his first wife and his daughters from this marriage Gladys and Lilian, who seems never to have married. His first wife had been dead for 24 years and he had been married to his second wife for 14. Why would his second wife have had him buried with the first one??? Did Lilian organise this and was it done without the second wife's consent? Was there some kind of rift?

I'm curious.

Posted by yvonnelyon@tinyworld.co.uk on 18th October 2015  

Hi Nigel,

I'm not sure what happened to my email of the 15th. I checked my 'sent' box and it's there but obviously you haven't had it. I've sent you another and hope it gets through. But I'm posting the same message on the Wigan Forum just in case.

Yes, I would love to make contact because I have known about Thomas Crawford's first family for a few years but never thought I would find any descendants. It would be great to hear your story or at least what your grandmother told you.

I am a half cousin of your father's, I think. I live in Oxford but was born in Bolton until I was about 26. I would love to talk to you on the phone and am very willing to ring you. Or you could call me. My number is 01865 777073.

My email is yvonnelyon@tinyworld.co.uk

Looking forward to speaking to you,

Best wishes