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Posted by geraldine long on 26th January 2015  geddtanner@blueyonder.co.uk 

Yes the chapel was RC belonging to Ince Hall situated off Manchester Road , used from late 1700s until 1818 when the family moved away. The problem with the records as much as them being in Latin is the fact that they are hand written !
Glad you enjoyed the walking day photos and if you are who I think you are,I have some from the convent as well mainly class photos but a couple of walking days complete with staw boaters.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Sarah Livesey was Louisa's daughter. You'll find her as Sarah Myers in the 1851 census. I shouldn't think he was her biological father as John and Louisa only married in 1846. he was a widower and already had a son called Lawrence.
L.

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Linda- exciting isn't it! Actually, I don't think I've ever been to Wigan but am rather grateful to it now!
I wonder if the parish of St. Mary may have some answers (founded 1819)? I wonder (also) if it actually had a graveyard? I can't see anything to help online as yet.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Oliver, Sarah is presumably the granddaughter, an illegitimate daughter of one of the ones still at home. The birth registers give the maiden name of the mother as Livesey.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

After Humphrey's death, the family seem to have been in Hindley. I take this to be Mary Ann's marriage:

Marriage: 20 Jul 1834 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
Henry Green - Bachelor, Wigan Parish
Mary Ann Livesey - Spinster, Wigan Parish
Witness: William Baron; Robert Grime
Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill Incumbent Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 78, Entry 234
Source: LDS Film 93751

My reasoning is that Henry was a brickmaker & Beer retailer and son Henry also a brickmaker. At the time of her death (1881), Mary Ann was living in Pemberton. She left 581 pounds in her will. Executors were son Henry and Joseph Livesey (her brother presumably).

Sister Teresa also married in Hindley:

Marriage: 12 Jun 1836 All Saints, Hindley, Lancashire, England
James Barlow - Bachelor, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Teresa Livesey - (X), Spinster, Hindley, Wigan Parish
Witness: William Mason; Robert Grime
Married by Banns by: Edwd. Hill Incumbent Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 100, Entry 299
Source: LDS Film 93751

The Peter you mention has the spouse's name as John Bolton Barlow. I don't know about the "Bolton" but I have checked several records and the Christian name was definitely James. I'll go into it again later.

Have just seen James's christening in 1812. His name was James Bolton Barlow. Teresa,despite her very Catholic name, seems to have turned her back on Catholicism (or at least the backs of her children!). The couple lived in the Wallgate area and all the children were baptised at All Saints. The entry of one in 1855 is immediately below that of my great-grandfather in the photocopied parish registers on ancestry.

LEP 1950

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Thank you Geraldine, that is smashing!
Only 4 more to find! John (Trafford) c.1808, Joseph (c.1820), Elizabeth (c.1824) and Margaret (c.1828). There is also a mysterious Sarah with the family on the 1841 census aged 3.

Posted by LEP1950 on 26th January 2015  

Geraldine,
You were in my class at primary school. Have looked at quite a few walking day photos you've posted. Thanks for that! I haven't lived in Wigan since 1972 and only visit about twice a year. It's fantaastic of you to look up those births. Was Ince Hall a RC chapel? Or was Sarah (Humphrey's second wife) CofE? If you find any more records, just copy the Latin. I did 'A' level Latin and can translate. I love helping on these difficult cases. I have my own brick walls.

If you're still in touch with anyone from primary school, say 'Hello' from Linda.

Oliver - we're closing in on them!!!

Linda

Posted by geraldine long on 26th January 2015  geddtanner@blueyonder.co.uk 

For Oliver Slade
In Baines 1825 directory of Wigan, Humphrey Livesey Land surveyor address Manchester Road,
Whilst in history shop, looked at Ince Hall Chapel records on microfilm and found Baptisms :-Maria Anna Livesey 22/7/1812
Theresa Livesey 20/8/1814
Louisa Livesey ?13/7/ 1817 all children of Humphrey and Sarah livesey. The chapel was only used 1800-1818 couldn't see any earlier ones but didn't have a lot of time and records are in Latin

Posted by Oliver Slade on 26th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

All exceptional stuff again! My line was voted the least likely (in our family) of turning up anything extraordinary. My fathers grandmother was a cleaning lady in Portsmouth- it was her grandmother that was Humphrey's daughter (she married a mason).
The will of John Trafford mentions Frances several times as the wife of Felix Fryer. He was described as a 'manufacturer'.
I've ordered Humphrey's wife's, Sarah, death certificate (hopefully)- maybe it will give us a clue about where she was buried.
There can't have been too many Humphrey Livesey's knocking about but you can probably understand my caution in claiming Frances. I studied quite alot of her ancestors at University in the 80's!

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th January 2015  

It is all very strange. If Henry's and Frances's daughter Frances married Felix Fryer, then he was a weaver. Weavers were not terribly affluent at the beginning of the 19th century:

Marriage: 26 Nov 1805 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Felix Fryer - Weaver, Leyland
Frances Livesey - Spinster, Parish of Preston
Witness: Sarah Graves; William Adamson?
Married by Licence by: Thomas Rebanks Minister
Register: Marriages 1793 - 1812, Page 218, Entry 871
Source: LDS Film 93952

No clues from the witnesses. Was she referred to as Frances Fryer in John's will? Probably not, since the marriage was in 1805 and Henry, who was also mentioend, supposedly died in 1801. And what was she doing in the Preston area? She had no father, no mother, no step-mother. Women didn't work in those days. Wouldn't she have been with her brother, who in 1805 was, it seems, in Wigan?? Or could Croston be described as the "Preston area". Was she staying with the Trafford family? The niece of such an illustrious family being handed over to a weaver??

I found Humphrey Livesey as a witness at two marriages. One in Croston in 1804:

Marriage: 2 Oct 1804 St Michael and All Angels, Croston, Lancashire, England
John Bullen - -, Winnick
Ann Eccleston - (X), -, This Parish
Witness: Humphry Livesey; William Farington
Married by Licence by: Streynsham Master Rector
Register: Marriages 1789 - 1812, Page 132, Entry 528
Source: LDS Film 93713

and at one in Wigan in 1805:

Marriage: 25 Apr 1805 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Henry Gaskell - this town [Wigan]
Alice Ambler - (X), this town [Wigan]
Witness: Wm. Bancks; Humphrey Livesey
Married by Licence by: John Gibson
Register: Marriages 1803 - 1812, Page 78, Entry 389
Source: LDS Film 1885690

We still don't know if it's one and the same Humphrey, but Humphrey was not such a common name.

Lancashire archives has a file on Croston parish including minute books, various accounts, maps, registers, titles, wills, surveys, letters, conveyances and other documents under
PR679-790 1579-1908CROSTON Parish

One of the documents mentions some transaction in 1811 between this Streynsham Master Rector and John Trafford de Trafford in 1811.

I also found another baptism at St John's, Wigan, at which Humphrey and Ann were godparents:

Baptism: 30 Jan 1809 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Hodgkinson - Son of Christopher Hodgkinson & Mary
Born: 28 Jan 1809
Godparents: Humphry Livsey; Ann Livsey
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 73
Source: Original register at LRO

We know that they were Catholics or they couldn't have been godparents. Another link to the Traffords! Christopher Hodgkinson probably married Ann Kenyon's sister:

Marriage: 26 Jun 1803 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Christopher Hodskinson - (X), Wigan
Mary Kenyon - (X), Wigan
Witness: Wm. Bancks; Wm. Rudd
Married by Banns by: John Gibson
Register: Marriages 1790 - 1803, Page 253, Entry 1598
Source: LDS Film 1885689

So, all for now. I'll keep pondering.My ancestors - Molyneuxs - also supposedly came over with William the Conqueror in 1066.Later a Molyneux became Earl of Sefton. I often ask myself how so many of them ended up in the Wigan coalmines!!

LEP1950

Posted by Oliver Slade on 25th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

To answer another point- yes, I think it likely that Henry married again and there were several burials in Ormskirk 1793-5. John Traffords will states that there were four Livesey children by Frances living- Humphrey, Henry (who subsequently died young), Frances (who married Felix Fryer of Preston) and Mary.
Thanks for the apprentice indenture- I'd missed that. V. Interesting!

Posted by Oliver Slade on 25th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Thanks again for all that! One of the reasons I've been so careful in claiming a descent from Frances Trafford is her ancestry! She has a direct line to Edward III- as you say, a genealogists dream! The Traffords seem to have been in the same place since the Norman conquest- an interesting bunch, I'd love to properly research them one day (not just on the internet!).
I've not seen Frances' marriage settlement. There was a chap researching all this a few years ago- he mentions it on the 'Livesey family genealogy forum' in 'Liveseys in Liverpool, Ormskirk and Wigan'. I did have him as a contact on Genes Reunited but before the Wigan records came online and I could prove Humphrey was my ancestor. I think he (Peter) died in c.2008.
Thanks again.

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th January 2015  

It is possible that the children of Frances Trafford/Livesey were christened in the private chapel of the Trafford family home. This was often the case with rich families. I've been reading about the (Catholic) Trafford/de Trafford family on the internet. Lucky you if you descend from that family as it can be followed back to about 1300 - an ancestry researcher's dream!! The name Humphrey seems to be associated with the Traffords rather than the Liveseys.

Can you give any details of the marriage settlement on Frances? I can't find the text online.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th January 2015  

I did find Frances's burial. She was buried in Croston, but you probably know this:
Burial: 13 May 1788 St Michael and All Angels, Croston, Lancashire, England
Frances Livesey - Wife of Henry Livesey
Died: 10 May 1788
Age: 41
Abode: Ormskirk
Occupation: Gentleman
Cause of Death: Child Bed
Notes: Buried in Squire Trafford Chapel
Register: Burials 1783 - 1791, Page 61, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 93713

It seems that the Traffords were a very rich family. But some of Humphrey Livesey's children with Sarah seem to have come down in the world. Louisa, just to take one example, is a "reeler" in the 1841 census. Is this why you are finding it so hard to link "your" Humphrey with the Livesey merchant in Ormskirk and Frances of this Trafford family? I understand, but family fortunes do change. Who knows in what situation Sarah was when Humphrey died. Perhaps he had gambled everything away.
I'll keep looking.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP 1950 on 24th January 2015  

Die Henry Livesey marry twice?

Marriage: 18 Jan 1778 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Henry Livesay - Batchelor, Ormskirk
Frances Trafford - spinster, the same town
Witness: Richd Walmsley; Henry Gill
Married by Licence by: Will Knowles Vicar
Register: Marriages 1754 - 1784, Page 308, Entry 1241
Source: LDS Film 1849664


Marriage: 15 Jul 1790 St Mary the Virgin, Eccleston, Lancashire, England
Henry Livesy - Widower, Ormskirk
Margaret Pilkington - (X), Spinster, Eccleston
Witness: William Morton; George Simpson
Married by Banns by: Richard Braithwaite
Register: Marriages 1772 - 1812, Page 53, Entry 212

Are these the deaths of Henry and his second wife?

Burial: 10 Mar 1793 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Margaret Livesay - Wife of Mr Henry Livesay
Abode: Orms[kirk]
Register: Burials 1771 - 1794, Page 80
Source: LDS Film 1849663
Burial: 28 Mar 1795 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Mr Henry Livesay -
Abode: Orms[kirk]
Register: Burials 1794 - 1812, Page 6, Entry 11
Source: LDS Film 1849663

Even Catholics had to be married in CofE churches at that time and they were often buried there, too. It was only important for them to have their children baptised in a Catholic ceremony.

I can't find Frances' burial, although a "Mrs Livesey" was buried in 1782. But who knows who that was, although she must have had a high standing in the community. Not everyone was called "Mr" or "Mrs". There are some burials of Liveseys, children of Henry, at the church, but NO BAPTISMS. You will, I think, have to look for RC records of the Ormskirk area.

LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th January 2015  

I don't know whether you have already noticed, but Humphrey Livesey is an apprentice for the land surveyor James Leigh of Parbold in 1796 (see
UK, Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices' Indentures, 1710-1811 forJas Leigh). Parbold is only 6 miles from Ormskirk. Perhaps another pointer!

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th January 2015  

Oliver, I think it's difficult to "prove" anything before a certain date, but you have to consider a number of pointers. In Pigot's National Directory from 1828,Humphrey Livesey, Land Surveyor, is listed as living in Birkett Bank (or at least his office was there). I know the area as I attended St Patrick's school many,many years ago.John (Trafford) Livesey is also a land surveyor and presumably the son. He lives in Hardybutts (later Rupert Street off Hardybutts), just round the corner from Birkett Bank. In 1851 he is there with his family, interestingly enough with a servant called Ellen Kenyon, whom I take to be a family member, perhaps his cousin or cousin's child. I presume John married Alice Harrison in 1833. Alice and John and other family members were buried in the same RC grave. John was buried as John Trafford Livesey. Now Trafford is a peculiar middle name. I think it must go back to a family member - John's grandmother Frances? So you have a link to Humphrey (the profession and the area Birkett bank/Hardybutts), a link to Ann Kenyon (Ellen Kenyon in the house) and a link to Frances Trafford (the name). His youngest son was also called FrancIs.The censuses point to John being born between 1805 and 1808. St Patrick's, the parish church of the area, was not open at this time. John Trafford should then have been baptised at St John's, but possibly the baptism took place in Ormskirk.

"Supersede" in this context means, I think, annulled.

Will browse around a bit more.

LEP1950

Posted by Oliver Slade on 24th January 2015  matfieldmariner@aol.com 

Thank you very much LEP1950 for all your time and effort! The key word I have for Humphrey is 'supposedly'! I'm as sure (as I can be) that my ancestor was Humphrey Livesey, 'Land Agent' of Wigan and I know that Henry and Frances had a son called Humphrey (he is mentioned in Frances' brother John Trafford's will) it is attempting to prove that they are one and the same!
I had heard that Henry had gone bankrupt so thank you for the link. I see on the same page his bankruptcy was 'superseded'- whatever that means! Possibly he was bailed out by his marriage settlement?
Also, I see that William and Mary Kennyon (!) had further children baptised at St. John's, one of which, Joseph, had as god-parent, John Livsey (possibly Humphrey and Ann's son) in 1820. I don't know where John was baptised though.

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd January 2015  

Another mail gone missing. I'm fed up. I took particular care to type in everything. I'm too tired to write everything again. Basically it said that Humphrey was supposedly the son of Henry Livesey of Ormskirk and Frances Trafford. You should try looking for the baptisms of their children (abt. six, I think) in the RC churches there. Records of St Anne's RC Church, Ormskirk for the period are at Lancashire Records Office. Alternatively on microfilm at Ormskirk library.

Good luck!
LEP1950

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd January 2015  

Apparently Henry went bankrupt in the year he married Frances. Notice is given in the "Gentleman's Magazine and Historical Chronicle", Vol XLVIII from 1778. On p. 440, under "Preferments, Bankrupts, and Stocks":

Henry Livesey, Ormskirk, Lancash., mercer.

I wanted to copy the extract, but it didn't work.

And
England, Cheshire, Marriage Bonds and Allegations
Name: Henry Livesey

Event Type: Intended marriage
Event Date: 17 Jan 1778
Residence Place: Ormskirk, Lancaster
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Marital Status: Batchelor
Spouse's Name: Frances Strafford

Spouse's Residence Place: Ormskirk
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Marital Status: Spinster
Digital Folder Number: 4018458 , Image Number: 1219

Her name was apparently Trafford not Stafford. Presumably a transcription error.

Please let us know if you find the baptisms!!

LEP1950