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Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

A convenient death:

Burial: 1 Mar 1808 St Mary the Virgin, Rufford, Lancashire, England
Margaret Forshaw - wife of Daniel Forshaw
Died: 28 Feb 1808
Age: 61
Abode: Rufford
Register: Burials 1783 - 1812, Page 20, Entry 581
Source: LDS Film 1526059

Her maiden name was possibly Leyland. Her death in 1808 would make a remarriage of Daniel in 1810 quite possible.

All for tonight!
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Jon,

I've had another look around. I think John Wignall married Margery Holding on July 25th, 1765 in Croston. Between 1766 and 1784, they had 11 children, if I have counted correctly. Margery was born in 1774. What is interesting is that Margery had four illegitimate daughters between 1796 and 1805, an Alice whose father is named as Richard Sergeant, an Ellen and Esther, who were christened on the same day and were possibly twins, and then another Esther. Margery's sisters Ellen and Margaret also seem to have given birth to illegitimate children. To me, it seems more likely that an older man who needed a housekeeper would be prepared to take on a woman with four (probably three as one Esther seems to have died) daughters. But I don't think it was so unusual to have gaps of 20 years and more between marriage partners. Often he younger women were second or third wives, as you say. With Daniel Forshaw, Margery seems to have had the children Robert (1811), Margery (1815) and Joyce (1818). I wouldn't rule out the 1815 Margery, but possibly there was an illegitimate Margaret betwen 1805 and 1810, whose baptism we can't find.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Jon,
There's a scan of the baptism register for Margery, bapt. 1815, on ancestry. Her father's name was definitely DANIEL and not DAVID.
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Hi Jon,

I'm off out now (eldest grandchild's birthday), but I just wanted to tell you that on familysearch last night after I had sent off my message, I found the baptism of a MARGERY FORSHAW to a Daniel Forshaw and Margery on 31st December 1815. I know it seems a bit late, but I wonder whether this was Margaret. It wouldn't be the first time I have seen Margaret/Margery used interchangeably on censuses.
On lan-opc, this baptism is recorded as daughter of David and Marjorie. Profession is "farmer", which was Daniel's profession. I wonder whether the original only shows "Da." I couldn't find a marriage of a David Forshaw in Rufford nor any other baptisms to this alleged couple. I don't think Daniel and Margery had many children, probably since she was quite old when she married.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 22nd June 2017  

Hi Linda,
thanks for touching base. From my own research I now heavily favour the Daniel Forshaw and Margery Wignall marriage as Margaret's parents, being in the right place (Rufford) and time to match Margaret's birth (1810-ish) even if her baptism is for whatever reason not recorded. The Joyce connection is also huge and led me to the same conclusion. Based on the son of Robert I favoured Daniels born to Roberts tho also considering the place (Rufford, Croston, and Ormskirk all reasonable) with a favouritims toward Rufford.

I considered 1792 Daniel also - however I did not find the information that you have found that rules him out, so that's a big help. The only reasonable Margery Wignall on OPC is a 1774 one (Rufford). Margery Forshaw dies in 1825 in Rufford, aged 53, so either the age recorded is a little off, or she was baptised at two or three years old. Or I need to find a different Margery Wignall that is not found on OPC. If I have the right one she married Daniel in her mid- to late-30s.

Re. Daniel, until you ruled out 1792 Daniel I was stuck with either him (being 18 or 20 years younger than his wife Margery - not sure if reasonable), or with one of two others - 1743/4 Daniel (Rufford, father Robert) or 1749/50 Daniel Alty (Rufford, base son of Robert Forshaw and Ellen Alty, who marry a couple years later, so to my understanding it's reasonable that this Daniel may have then gone by the surname Forshaw from this early point of his life).

1759 Daniel dies in the same year, and I think that's his Dad dying in 1764. The only other Daniel between 1749/50 and 1792 in a 1776 burial, seemingly of an Adult.

Only 4 Daniel F's are on the 1841 Census - three born after 1800 and therefore not mine. And a 1791 one who you have already found married to Ann/Nancy. The children found with them show Margt from 1815ish, so we can rule out 1792 Daniel from having first married Margery then later on Ann (after Margery's death).

Leaving the two Daniels from the 1740s... in this case Daniel would have been 25 to 30 years older than Margery his wife. Possibly she was his second or third wife, even? No reference is made to Daniel's marital status in their record.

Clearly my Daniel is deceased before the 1850s, and likely even before 1841 as he is not to be found in the Census. Whether or not Margery is the correct marriage for him, this leaves me (with the OPC records) to deduce that he is the Daniel dying in 1822 at age 78. This means a circa 1744 birth and being thirty or so years older than Margery. Not unheard of though - on my mother's side, my 70-something ancestor married their live-in 20-something servant girl between censuses after his wife died. They even had a child or two together. Maybe Margery was not Daniel's first marriage. My musings so far....




I think 1774 Margery is of John Wignall (d. 1817?) and Margery Holding/Holden. John's parentage not known. Margery's: Richard Holden/Margery Fairclough, William Fairclough/? . That said, I will concern myself more with those once confirmed that Margery Wignall is indeed my ancestor.

Thanks for any assistance offered and hope all is well

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st June 2017  

Jon,

I have perhaps been too quick. It looks like the Daniel born in 1791/92 married someone called Ann. He was still alive in 1861. He died in 1865.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st June 2017  

Hi Jon,

Don't know whether this is your line as I don't have much time at all this week to do much research, but I found an interesting baptism of a DANIEL FORSHAW at St Mary's Church, Rufford on 22 April 1792. He was the son of ROBERT and ALICE FORSHAW. He probably went on to marry Margery Wignall(daughter of JOHN WIGNALL) on July 17th 1810. I found the baptisms of two children - a son Robert in 1811 and a daughter called Joyce (Interesting!!) in 1818 in Rufford. Couldn't find any other children to date. No Margaret Forshaw or an illegitimate Margaret Wignall (well, there was one actually, but in 1822 and elsewhere). Anyway, it might be worth trying to trace these people.
It will probably be the weekend before I have time to go deeper into this.

Linda

Posted by Elizabeth Prior on 21st June 2017  

I've been in direct contact with Albert about Ann Grundy. The Wigan Ann is not the right one. Having had a dig around on Lan-OPC and Lancashire BMD the most likely candidate is the Ann Grundy who died age 83 in Bury in the September quarter of 1932.

Posted by Margie on 21st June 2017  

To Albert /Julie.

From the records Wigan Cemetery (Lower Ince)

Grundy Nathan 76 yrs 12 Alfred St. Swinley 19-Apr 1922 A 351 Non Con
Grundy Ann 78 Yrs Sterling St 10-Jan 1927 A 351 Non Con
Rigby
Rigby Samuel 60 59 Darlington Street East 26-Dec 1904 A 351 Non Con

Is this the Ann you are looking for,

Margie

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

For Albert Smith
Hello!
Regarding your query about Ann Grundy's death in Wigan in 1927, have you seen a copy of the death certificate? If not, it might be worth ordering one from:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
(This is the official government website and I believe the cheapest way to order certificates - although they have recently had a trial to use cheaper PDFs, which may or may not return).
If you are lucky, the information on the certificate might state who Ann was a 'wife' or 'widow' of, and you might also recognise the informant of the death as a family member of Ann's that you know of. Using the above link, I searched and could find just one statutory registration for an Ann Grundy who died in Jan - Mar 1927.

On another website, I found a Probate entry for an Ann Grundy who died in Jan 1927, which may, or may not be the same Ann (always check):
Address 8 Stirling-street, Wigan, widow, died 6 Jan 1927. Probate to Nathan Rigby, painter and decorator.

If 'Nathan Rigby' rings a bell, you may well have found your Ann. If not, it's worth checking to see if he was related to your Ann in some way.

Regarding info on Joseph Rigby, have you seen the marriage certificate? If not, again it could be worth ordering one as they usually include the name of the father of the groom (& bride), the occupation, and, if lucky, a relative as a witness.

Hope this helps, Julie

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Linda, thank you so much for your time and information - very much valued. I hope you've had a good time with your grandchildren.

You certainly seem to know the Corless family background very well/research very quickly! Yes, William and Elizabeth did spend time in the Scholes area, close to where he would have lived as a child, if he was Martha's son (as well as living in Longshoot). I know little about the geography of the Wigan area, so it's really helpful to have these links between areas confirmed.

As you said, both William & Elizabeth were living at Corporation Street, Wigan at the time of their marriage in Apr 1877. The witnesses were Elizabeth's sister, Alice, and her husband Thomas Orme, who were also living in Wigan (Queen St), when their daughter, Elizabeth Agnes was born in January 1877. I wonder if Alice's being there was what brought Elizabeth to Wigan in the first place, where she then met William.

From Wigan, William and Elizabeth seem to have moved back to Ormskirk, to Elizabeth's family, as their daughter, Martha Alice, was born there just over a week after the wedding.Then, back to Wigan in 1878, and to Ormskirk again Census 1881 ('Cawles'with Elizabeth's family).

Sometime between 1884 & 1887 they returned to Wigan, where they seem to have stayed until between Apr 1892 (death of daughter Mary Alice/Lily, Scholes Bridge) & Dec 1892 (birth of Henry in Burnley). After that, they settled in the Burnley area.

I must have a look for Beatrice's second baptism!

Catherine Corless/Birchall, had a Catholic burial c1854. When Martha Corless died in 1889, her burial was C of E, and I imagine that after Catherine's death, the family (if raised as Catholics) gradually moved away from Catholicism, with none of William's children being baptised as Catholics.

The 2 oldest (and short lived) daughters of Elizabeth and William were named Martha Alice - another possible link to Martha Corless (with 'Alice' for Elizabeth's sister. Things are very much pointing towards Martha as William's mother, which is great, as I have tree traced for Martha back through Robert Corless & Alice Brighouse/Brighurst to early C18 Wigan!

Your thought that John Hitchen could have been William's father is very interesting. I had had the same idea, with them both being in the same household C1861, but later revised that when I saw how young John was and that John had a different status to Martha, William and Ellen, 'Boarder' as opposed to 'Lodger' (or vice versa). John H also married soon after the 1861 Census. I then wondered if there might be some other blood relationship between Martha Corless & the Hitchens (or McSurlys). John Hitchen as William's father would certainly fit with 'John' as his father. Confirming that might be tricky, though.

Your replies have really helped me to pull ideas together - thanks again. Julie

Posted by LP1950 on 19th June 2017  

Jon,
I'll get back to you in a couple of days. Have to help out with one of the grandchildren at the moment.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th June 2017  

Julie,
When William Corless married, he may have said that his father's name was "John", which was probably true, as I think he was probably the son of John Hitchen, although I don't think siser Ellen shared the same father. From that, it was presumed by the registrar that the father's name was John CORLESS. Or William himself added the name Corless to hide his illegitimacy. It happened. I also followed a couple of William Corlesses born around the same time, but they didn't fit. It's a pity that William and Elizabeth were both living in Corporation Street at the time of the marriage and can't be traced through the address. But they were in Scholes (which leads up to Whelley) in 1891. The baptism of Albert, b. 1887, died 1888, took place at St Catherine's and was not a RC baptism. Most of the others were christened at All Saints, Wigan and the last ones in Burnley. Interestingly, Beatrice seems to have been christened twice!! At the age of "4" and at the age of 15. They were often christend with two names, but registered only with one and not necessarily the first one of the names at baptism. Makes it all a bit difficult. Anyway, good luck! I'll look again tomorrow as I have my grandchild today.

Linda

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Eileen, many thanks for that link and news of Wigan papers being online. I've already had a look and found a few things (on Find My Past).

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Hello Linda

Many thanks for the reply and all the information - it's very much appreciated. Yes, that William was my Great grandfather (husband of Elizabeth & father of John - and the other children). He certainly changed name and age! I have traced him from his 1877 marriage until his death, but I haven't got a confirmed birth for him. I haven't been able to find a statutory birth (or a baptism) for him with the details he gave at his marriage/on censuses, i.e. (from marriage) born c1856 in Wigan, father John Corless, miner. I suspect (and rather hope as I have the tree traced backwards from her) that Martha Corless was his mother and father's name incorrect (knowingly by William or not, to hide his birth out of wedlock).

I've now traced all William Corlesses b Wigan c1850 - 1860 on the censuses 1861 onwards, and the only one that seems to fit (and to have otherwise have disappeared) is Martha's son.That's still speculation at the moment, though! I wonder if anyone else is claiming William, son of Martha, as their ancestor, which rule out him being mine? (No tree including him on Ancestry or elsewhere that I can see).

Martha's mother seems to have been RC - first child (& only baptism of Catherine Chandler and Robert Corless's children I've found) was baptised as RC (William b c 1819), and I just found out that Catherine had an RC burial.

I'm excitedly planning a visit to Wigan Archives in the next few months (easy, as I'm in Yorkshire). Hopefully, I'll find the baptisms of Martha and another 3+ siblings. (When Robert was transported c 1830, the records show he and Catherine had 5 living children at that date).
Thanks again, Julie

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th June 2017  

The 1841 Census shows only 5 Daniel Forshaws - even allowing for 'Exact and Similar' on both Name and Surname.
They live in Tarleton, North Meols, Manchester, Hesketh with Becconstall, and Stepney-Middlesex. Only one (Tarleton) could possible be old enough to be Margaret Forshaw's father.

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th June 2017  

Hi Linda,

hope you are well.

I'm stuck in Wigan! though not literally - but my family lines of MARROW and FORSHAW. You may remember that my ancestor Wm Edmondson Hartington married an Elizabeth Marrow - Wm and Eliz. are my 4x great- grands.
I'm chasing her parentage and have done well but still missing a little. Probably due to the gaps that may exist from this being seemingly a Catholic family.

Elizabeth's parents are Peter Marrow and Margaret nee FORSHAW. This maiden name is shown on BMD records for Elizabeth and her younger sister Joyce.
The family in 1841: http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&indiv=try&h=16407053&requr=2533575444430848&ur=0&lang=en-AU
where entries for search seem to be individual, tho in the image we can see them all together.

The family in 1851 (typo in surname made them awfully hard to find): http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&indiv=try&h=13177562&requr=2533575444430848&ur=0&lang=en-AU

Peter dies in 1854 (not registered on Lancs OPC), and Margaret remarries in 1857:

Marriage: 6 Jul 1857 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Myers - 49, Labourer, Widower, Adelaide Street
Margaret Marrow - (X), 47, Widow, Adelaide Street
Groom's Father: Lawrence Myers, deceased
Bride's Father: Daniel Forshaw, Deceased
Witness: Ralph Peters, (X); Ellen Taylor, (X)
Married by Banns by: Jas. Cronshaw Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1852 - 1861, Page 86, Entry 172
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

She dies under the name Myers. Elizabeth marries in 1858 and Peter the father is recorded as deceased at that time.

It's Margaret's father I'm having trouble pinning down, tho originally it was exciting to see a less common name (Daniel) as I thought this might make my searches easier.
I've reopened this "case" after a while and will be searching again myself to see if my older eyes find something I couldn't the last I looked. It seems from the FORSHAW-MYERS marriage that Daniel was already deceased come 1857 - how much previous to this date his death occurred I'm not sure.

For the record I'm unsure if the FORSHAW family was/is Catholic here; it would seem that the Marrows definitely were, and I have other questions about them if you wouldn't mind helping me with it at a later time. It's all Wigan-based so this is the place I thought to come!

Jon

PS Joyce Marrow marries a GUNNING and dies in 1908. Peter MARROW and Margaret had a third daughter Ann who lived for less than one year - dying in 1842.
Margaret FORSHAW/MARROW/MYERS daughter of Daniel FORSHAW seems to have been born in Rufford anywhere from 1805-1811, depending which Census or marriage record you view.

Posted by LEP1950 on 18th June 2017  

Hello Julie,

I've been browsing around for the last couple of hours and have found out what happened to William Corless and Elizabeth Sumner. They had lots of children who mostly died in infancy. To date I only have the survivors Beatrice, John William and Henry. If these names ring a bell, let me know and I'll tell you all I found out, but it's after midnight where I am and I don't want to go into detail if it turns out to be the wrong family. There was a lot of movement, wrong ages and strange surname spellings. It's no wonder you had difficulty.

Linda

Posted by Julie A on 18th June 2017  

Hello. I'm new to this site, so I'm hoping I'm posting in the right place.
I'm tracing the line of William Corless b c 1856, Wigan. His mother was probably Martha Corless born c1825 - 1830 in Wigan, who spent much of her recorded life in Whelley/Scholes. She was the daughter of Catherine Chandler (later Birchall)and Robert Corless. On 2 censuses, Martha was living in or near Hitchen/McSurly households:

1861: Martha and children were 'Lodgers' with Peter and Alice McSurley who had a 'Boarder', John Hitchen.
1881: Martha and daughter (Ellen) and grand daughter (Elizabeth) were living next to Charles Hitchen (brother of John).

I'm trying to find out if William, son, of Martha, was my great-grandfather, or not. I have no trace of him beyond 1871, but no evidence either to confirm he married Elizabeth Sumner in 1877. I also wonder if Martha Corless and family were related to the Hitchens/McSurlys.
Does anyone know answers to the above, or what happened to Martha's William Corless after 1871 Census? Any information about this or any info about the Chandler/Corless line (Martha had several siblings I've not been able to trace yet - next step Wigan Archives RC records)would be very welcome. Thank you in advance for any replies. Julie

Posted by Eileen on 17th June 2017  

The British Newspaper Archive has finally added some coverage for Wigan. https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/titles/wigan-observer-and-district-advertiser