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Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Linda, thank you so much for your time and information - very much valued. I hope you've had a good time with your grandchildren.

You certainly seem to know the Corless family background very well/research very quickly! Yes, William and Elizabeth did spend time in the Scholes area, close to where he would have lived as a child, if he was Martha's son (as well as living in Longshoot). I know little about the geography of the Wigan area, so it's really helpful to have these links between areas confirmed.

As you said, both William & Elizabeth were living at Corporation Street, Wigan at the time of their marriage in Apr 1877. The witnesses were Elizabeth's sister, Alice, and her husband Thomas Orme, who were also living in Wigan (Queen St), when their daughter, Elizabeth Agnes was born in January 1877. I wonder if Alice's being there was what brought Elizabeth to Wigan in the first place, where she then met William.

From Wigan, William and Elizabeth seem to have moved back to Ormskirk, to Elizabeth's family, as their daughter, Martha Alice, was born there just over a week after the wedding.Then, back to Wigan in 1878, and to Ormskirk again Census 1881 ('Cawles'with Elizabeth's family).

Sometime between 1884 & 1887 they returned to Wigan, where they seem to have stayed until between Apr 1892 (death of daughter Mary Alice/Lily, Scholes Bridge) & Dec 1892 (birth of Henry in Burnley). After that, they settled in the Burnley area.

I must have a look for Beatrice's second baptism!

Catherine Corless/Birchall, had a Catholic burial c1854. When Martha Corless died in 1889, her burial was C of E, and I imagine that after Catherine's death, the family (if raised as Catholics) gradually moved away from Catholicism, with none of William's children being baptised as Catholics.

The 2 oldest (and short lived) daughters of Elizabeth and William were named Martha Alice - another possible link to Martha Corless (with 'Alice' for Elizabeth's sister. Things are very much pointing towards Martha as William's mother, which is great, as I have tree traced for Martha back through Robert Corless & Alice Brighouse/Brighurst to early C18 Wigan!

Your thought that John Hitchen could have been William's father is very interesting. I had had the same idea, with them both being in the same household C1861, but later revised that when I saw how young John was and that John had a different status to Martha, William and Ellen, 'Boarder' as opposed to 'Lodger' (or vice versa). John H also married soon after the 1861 Census. I then wondered if there might be some other blood relationship between Martha Corless & the Hitchens (or McSurlys). John Hitchen as William's father would certainly fit with 'John' as his father. Confirming that might be tricky, though.

Your replies have really helped me to pull ideas together - thanks again. Julie

Posted by LP1950 on 19th June 2017  

Jon,
I'll get back to you in a couple of days. Have to help out with one of the grandchildren at the moment.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th June 2017  

Julie,
When William Corless married, he may have said that his father's name was "John", which was probably true, as I think he was probably the son of John Hitchen, although I don't think siser Ellen shared the same father. From that, it was presumed by the registrar that the father's name was John CORLESS. Or William himself added the name Corless to hide his illegitimacy. It happened. I also followed a couple of William Corlesses born around the same time, but they didn't fit. It's a pity that William and Elizabeth were both living in Corporation Street at the time of the marriage and can't be traced through the address. But they were in Scholes (which leads up to Whelley) in 1891. The baptism of Albert, b. 1887, died 1888, took place at St Catherine's and was not a RC baptism. Most of the others were christened at All Saints, Wigan and the last ones in Burnley. Interestingly, Beatrice seems to have been christened twice!! At the age of "4" and at the age of 15. They were often christend with two names, but registered only with one and not necessarily the first one of the names at baptism. Makes it all a bit difficult. Anyway, good luck! I'll look again tomorrow as I have my grandchild today.

Linda

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Eileen, many thanks for that link and news of Wigan papers being online. I've already had a look and found a few things (on Find My Past).

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

Hello Linda

Many thanks for the reply and all the information - it's very much appreciated. Yes, that William was my Great grandfather (husband of Elizabeth & father of John - and the other children). He certainly changed name and age! I have traced him from his 1877 marriage until his death, but I haven't got a confirmed birth for him. I haven't been able to find a statutory birth (or a baptism) for him with the details he gave at his marriage/on censuses, i.e. (from marriage) born c1856 in Wigan, father John Corless, miner. I suspect (and rather hope as I have the tree traced backwards from her) that Martha Corless was his mother and father's name incorrect (knowingly by William or not, to hide his birth out of wedlock).

I've now traced all William Corlesses b Wigan c1850 - 1860 on the censuses 1861 onwards, and the only one that seems to fit (and to have otherwise have disappeared) is Martha's son.That's still speculation at the moment, though! I wonder if anyone else is claiming William, son of Martha, as their ancestor, which rule out him being mine? (No tree including him on Ancestry or elsewhere that I can see).

Martha's mother seems to have been RC - first child (& only baptism of Catherine Chandler and Robert Corless's children I've found) was baptised as RC (William b c 1819), and I just found out that Catherine had an RC burial.

I'm excitedly planning a visit to Wigan Archives in the next few months (easy, as I'm in Yorkshire). Hopefully, I'll find the baptisms of Martha and another 3+ siblings. (When Robert was transported c 1830, the records show he and Catherine had 5 living children at that date).
Thanks again, Julie

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th June 2017  

The 1841 Census shows only 5 Daniel Forshaws - even allowing for 'Exact and Similar' on both Name and Surname.
They live in Tarleton, North Meols, Manchester, Hesketh with Becconstall, and Stepney-Middlesex. Only one (Tarleton) could possible be old enough to be Margaret Forshaw's father.

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th June 2017  

Hi Linda,

hope you are well.

I'm stuck in Wigan! though not literally - but my family lines of MARROW and FORSHAW. You may remember that my ancestor Wm Edmondson Hartington married an Elizabeth Marrow - Wm and Eliz. are my 4x great- grands.
I'm chasing her parentage and have done well but still missing a little. Probably due to the gaps that may exist from this being seemingly a Catholic family.

Elizabeth's parents are Peter Marrow and Margaret nee FORSHAW. This maiden name is shown on BMD records for Elizabeth and her younger sister Joyce.
The family in 1841: http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&indiv=try&h=16407053&requr=2533575444430848&ur=0&lang=en-AU
where entries for search seem to be individual, tho in the image we can see them all together.

The family in 1851 (typo in surname made them awfully hard to find): http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&indiv=try&h=13177562&requr=2533575444430848&ur=0&lang=en-AU

Peter dies in 1854 (not registered on Lancs OPC), and Margaret remarries in 1857:

Marriage: 6 Jul 1857 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Myers - 49, Labourer, Widower, Adelaide Street
Margaret Marrow - (X), 47, Widow, Adelaide Street
Groom's Father: Lawrence Myers, deceased
Bride's Father: Daniel Forshaw, Deceased
Witness: Ralph Peters, (X); Ellen Taylor, (X)
Married by Banns by: Jas. Cronshaw Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1852 - 1861, Page 86, Entry 172
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

She dies under the name Myers. Elizabeth marries in 1858 and Peter the father is recorded as deceased at that time.

It's Margaret's father I'm having trouble pinning down, tho originally it was exciting to see a less common name (Daniel) as I thought this might make my searches easier.
I've reopened this "case" after a while and will be searching again myself to see if my older eyes find something I couldn't the last I looked. It seems from the FORSHAW-MYERS marriage that Daniel was already deceased come 1857 - how much previous to this date his death occurred I'm not sure.

For the record I'm unsure if the FORSHAW family was/is Catholic here; it would seem that the Marrows definitely were, and I have other questions about them if you wouldn't mind helping me with it at a later time. It's all Wigan-based so this is the place I thought to come!

Jon

PS Joyce Marrow marries a GUNNING and dies in 1908. Peter MARROW and Margaret had a third daughter Ann who lived for less than one year - dying in 1842.
Margaret FORSHAW/MARROW/MYERS daughter of Daniel FORSHAW seems to have been born in Rufford anywhere from 1805-1811, depending which Census or marriage record you view.

Posted by LEP1950 on 18th June 2017  

Hello Julie,

I've been browsing around for the last couple of hours and have found out what happened to William Corless and Elizabeth Sumner. They had lots of children who mostly died in infancy. To date I only have the survivors Beatrice, John William and Henry. If these names ring a bell, let me know and I'll tell you all I found out, but it's after midnight where I am and I don't want to go into detail if it turns out to be the wrong family. There was a lot of movement, wrong ages and strange surname spellings. It's no wonder you had difficulty.

Linda

Posted by Julie A on 18th June 2017  

Hello. I'm new to this site, so I'm hoping I'm posting in the right place.
I'm tracing the line of William Corless b c 1856, Wigan. His mother was probably Martha Corless born c1825 - 1830 in Wigan, who spent much of her recorded life in Whelley/Scholes. She was the daughter of Catherine Chandler (later Birchall)and Robert Corless. On 2 censuses, Martha was living in or near Hitchen/McSurly households:

1861: Martha and children were 'Lodgers' with Peter and Alice McSurley who had a 'Boarder', John Hitchen.
1881: Martha and daughter (Ellen) and grand daughter (Elizabeth) were living next to Charles Hitchen (brother of John).

I'm trying to find out if William, son, of Martha, was my great-grandfather, or not. I have no trace of him beyond 1871, but no evidence either to confirm he married Elizabeth Sumner in 1877. I also wonder if Martha Corless and family were related to the Hitchens/McSurlys.
Does anyone know answers to the above, or what happened to Martha's William Corless after 1871 Census? Any information about this or any info about the Chandler/Corless line (Martha had several siblings I've not been able to trace yet - next step Wigan Archives RC records)would be very welcome. Thank you in advance for any replies. Julie

Posted by Eileen on 17th June 2017  

The British Newspaper Archive has finally added some coverage for Wigan. https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/titles/wigan-observer-and-district-advertiser

Posted by Albert Smith on 4th June 2017  asmith68@bell.net 

I believe that ANN GRUNDY who died during the period Jan-Mar 1927 in Wigan may be my great-grandmother.

My great-grandmother was born Ann Bethell in Salford (Manchester?) about December 1849. She married Henry Smith in Accrington (Haslingden) about 1867. In the 1901 census her mother was listed living with them in Bolton and her name was written as Ellen Birthell(?) born in Wigan.

Henry Smith and Ann Bethell had seven children:
Mary Ellen b.1868, married Joseph Henry Selkirk.
Agnes b.1870, married Henry Sanderson.
Betsy Jane b.1876, married a man with the surname Clarke.
William b.1878, married Mary Elizabeth Madows.
Henry b.1880. I have no record of a marriage.
Eliza b.1882. I have no record of a marriage but she did have a daughter Lizzie.
Albert (my grandfather) b.1891, married Florence Smith daughter of James Smith and Mary Piercy (my other great-grandparents). James Smith was a policeman in Bolton.

Henry Smith died in 1908. Ann (Bethell) Smith married Joseph Grundy about August 1913 in Barton upon Irwell. I have no other information about Joseph, such as date and place of his birth and death, nor any of his family members.

Ann Smith and her daughter Eliza travelled to Canada in 1910. Ann (Smith) Grundy travelled to Canada in 1920. Her Son William emigrated to Canada in 1910, and her son Albert (my grandfather) and his family emigrated to Canada in 1920.

I would like to somehow confirm whether or not that Ann Grundy who died in Wigan in 1927 is my great-grandmother born Ann Bethell.

Any information about any of the other persons listed here would truly be appreciated.

Albert Raymond Smith
133 Lea Crescent
Welland, Ontario L3C 7J7
Canada
Email: asmith68@bell.net
Phone: 1-950-788-4097
Fax: 1-360-234-5391

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th May 2017  

Jon, I think it's quite possible. From my own family I have the bride's father in one case listed as "deceased" (he was), but at the marriage of her sister two years later he is listed as "father" with a profession. So things like this were not so unusual.
Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th May 2017  

Hi,
just a quick yes or no for anyone who might know:
is it possible that burial records (on Lancs OPC) for a woman whose husband died before her might say "Wife of" instead of "widow" or "widow of", as if the husband were still alive?

Thanks in advance

Jon

Posted by Elizabeth Prior on 18th May 2017  

Linda,
It must be 'my' William in 1761 and I am inclined to agree that the Hoghton William is probably the father of Isabella. Thank you for the information.
Elizabeth

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th May 2017  

For Elizabeth:
In the Register of Duties for Apprentices' Indentures 1710-1811, a Will. Worsick, joiner of Woolton le dale (sic) made a payment for his apprentice Richard Wilson on 23 April, 1761. Your William? It would seem so.
Interesting is also the payment for a James Unsworth on June 12, 1731 by Will. Worsecke, carpenter of Hoghton. Today Brindle and Hoghton are the same ward. Was this Isabella's William? Or perhaps your William's line? He had the same profession anyway.

Linda

Posted by margie on 16th May 2017  

For Elizabeth & Lynda,
Will get back to you later in the week with my Thomas Bonney, but late last night I came across these might help I don't know.

1698 Wm son of Henry Worswick de Walton
1699 Roger son of above
1702 Ellen d of Henry Worswick
1704 Thomas s of Henry Worswick poor.

1704 Ann d of Wm Worswick poor

These are all baptisms from the registers of the Parish Church Brindle.

Margie

Posted by Elizabeth on 15th May 2017  

Message for Linda,
When the 1797 Return refers to time resident I think it may well mean in Walton rather than the parish of Blackburn. Apart from Henry Worsick in Walton the other local Worsicks moved into a place. Given that most Catholic records start well after the 1730s, the chances of finding a baptism for 'my' William are about zero. The interesting thing is that William was a joiner, Henry was too and also a Robert Worsick in Brindle.
Yes the possibility that both fathers were called John had occurred to me - in the wee small hours when my brain cell is supposed to be asleep! Which is when, having read in the introduction to the Standish Chapel registers that they were written up from memory (don't ask why I was doing that past midnight)the penny dropped about the Heskeths. The mother's name is consistently given as Esther with her maiden name also supplied on a couple of occasions so logically the father should, in every case be George. It would have been handy if Charles Hesketh had named one of his daughters Esther but search as I may it is not a name given to any of his daughters.
Elizabeth

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th May 2017  

Elizabeth,
Thank you for all that information. I'm really interested in learning more, both generally and specifically.Looking at the baptism records of Brindle, there must have been quite a few Worsicks around as plenty are listed as godparents. As far as the children of Henry Worsick from 1698 to 1704 are concerned, there are copies of the Bishop's Transcripts for 1702 (Ellen) and 1704 (Thomas) for BRINDLE on ancestry. I don't know where in Brindle as they are not registered at St James and also not at St Leonard's in Walton.
So, "your" William only came to Walton aound 1759? So you are looking for a baptism elsewhere around 1733? I agree that it's likely his father's name was Thomas, but I suppose there is the possiblity that both fathers were called John.

I looked at your Heskeths at St John's church. The confusion with the fathers' names is very strange, but perhaps the priest entered details into the register from memory and mixed up the two brothers. It happened!

Linda

Posted by Elizabeth Prior on 14th May 2017  

For Linda
I think Margie is on the trail of another Thomas Bonney.
Different Worsicks/Worsleys. Unlike the census the people listed did not have the option of adjusting their age!
William & Ann had three children before Thomas, Elizabeth in 1758,Margaret in 1760 and John in 1764 (the 1767 Return gives their ages as 8,7 and 3 respectively) Thomas's age is given as 6 months. I am almost certain that Ann's parents were John and Elizabeth nee Rigby so if the naming pattern theory holds good then 'my' William's parents were Thomas and Margaret.
It is quite possible that the Brindle William was uncle to 'my William' but in the absence of any wills it will be impossible to prove; likewise any connection with Henry and Richard Worsick living in Walton le Dale in 1767. These two are the ones for whom you found the marriages. Henry, a carpenter age 38, was born in Walton le Dale. His wife Jane, age 30, came into Walton 20 years before. Richard, a tailor, was 28 in 1767, his wife Margaret 29; he had come into Walton le Dale 8 years before, interestingly a year after 'my' William.
The Brindle Catholic registers start in the early 1720s so the entries you found on Family Search will almost certainly be from St Leonard's and may records of births rather than baptisms. In the late 1600s and early 1700s there seems to have been a requirement that the births of Catholic children be noted in the Anglican registers - I will try to find out. I know from a note in the Gillmoss (St Swithun)record that the priest had been informed, in the 1780s, he need no longer pass details of the Catholic baptisms to the Anglican parish clerk for entry in the CoE register - which explains why you will sometimes find a child apparently baptised both Catholic and Anglican! However, the only positively identified Catholic in the early 1700s is in the 1705 Return namely Thomas Worseley (sic), husbandman with a family of three living in Croston. He is also recorded in 1716. So I suspect that the Henry you found was, if not Anglican, then what was known as a Church papist i.e. he put in appearances at the parish church sufficient to avoid trouble with the authorities.
Elizabeth

Posted by LEP1950 on 13th May 2017  

For Eizabeth/Margie:

Didn't Thomas Bonney marry Helen Worsake/Worsick in 1753? This was before Edward's Thomas was born. Or are you trying to trace a different one?

I've spent some hours looking at Catholic records and am surprised at what is now available on the internet. Looked this afternoon at a list of Leyland recusants from 1628. A couple of Worsicks and some Heskeths in there!

Obviously William Worsick with Isabella wasn't born in 1733 and his son William was supposedly born in 1740/41. So a different branch of perhaps the same family. Or William has made himself older in the list of Papists of 1767. In the transcriptions of the Bamber Bridge William and Ann (nee Brindle) it says their address is Walton. I'm thinking that that should be Walton-le-Dale!
I looked at the records of St Leonard's in Walton. There were no Worsick baptisms (apart from the entry for Thomas in 1766, son of William and Ann nee Brindle with the note Papist) as it isn't a RC church, but there were some marriages and burials, mostly after 1750. However, there was one interesting marriage of a HENRY WORSICK of Walton to ANN FARRINGTON of Brindle on March 6th 1698. In Brindle were the following baptisms:
WILLIAM (3 May 1698) - father Henry Worsick
ROGER(5 Nov 1689) - father Henry Worsick
ELLEN (18 Mar 1703) - father Henry Worsick
THOMAS (17 Dec 1704)- father Henry Worswick

These baptisms didn't take place at the CofE church in Brindle as these are online and can be searched. I found them on familysearch and presume they are also from St Joseph's RC church.

The above William could be the one who married Isabella, but where is the child named after the father? The couple could have been elsewhere before the birth of daughter Ann in 1726 and had children there. Who knows? A Henry Worsick married Jane Abbot in 1761 at St Leonard's, Walton. Where did he come from?

Notice that there is a Thomas, b. 1704. Could he be "your" William's father? William married Ann in 1758. At the same church a Henry married Jane Abbot in 1761 and Richard married Margaret Worthington in 1763. Could they have all been brothers? Speculation, speculation....

Linda

PS Don't you think William and Ann Brindle would have had children between 1758 and 1764 when the baptisms in Brindle start? I've just noticed that their first son seems to have been John (baptised 1764) and not Thomas!