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Posted by LEP1950 on 14th July 2017  

Jon,
It's a bit of a bad time for research for me for the next couple of weeks. I'd only gone back to Robert Forshaw and Jane Culshaw myself. We haven't been able to prove so far that "your" Margaret was definitely the daughter of Daniel and Margery Wignall.I know that Daniel had a daughter called Margaret, who seems to have died in 1800, and that his first wife Margaret died in 1808. It might seem strange to us, but a further daughter may have been named in their memory. Marriages were more pragmatic in those days and a second wife was probably not possessed by jealousy. Sometimes children were christened at home immediately after birth if it looked like the baby might not survive, and sometimes these christenings weren't entered in the parish registers. Also not all the church registers have been transcribed so far. So there are many reasons why we haven't been able to "prove" what we might suspect. BUT we may be wrong. I don't like to rely on ancestry trees, and there are so many Forshaws in that area in the 17th and 18th century that it would take a while to sort them out (if possible!). I will take up the thread again in about 10 days' time. Meanwhile I need to finish what I found for Carol.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 10th July 2017  

Hi Linda,
wondering if now's a good time to continue our quest on the Forshaw line but if not all good I can wait :)

We were considering that my ancestor Daniel Forshaw married a Margery Wignall as his second wife, and that my ancestor Margaret Forshaw (turned Marrow turned Myers) came thru the second wife. First wife would have been a Margaret and if we are correct Daniel died in 1822 and was much older than his second wife. This places him likely son of Robert Forshaw and Jane (chr. 1743/4), (Robert and Jane Cushaw m. 1738).

Further back, many of the details I see in Ancestry Family Trees are absent from Lancs OPC, though they (perhaps influencing each other - not that I can see anything problematic yet) seem to favour the generations this way:

Robert Forshaw (chr. 1718)
(m. Jane Culshaw)

Edward Forshaw (chr. 1682)
(m. Mary Whittle)

Robert Forshaw (chr. 1650)
(m. Cicely Baldwin)

Hugh Forshaw (chr. 1630)
(m. Margaret Willbe)

Hugh Forshaw (chr. 1607)
(m. Elizabeth Sutton)

William Forshaw (chr. 1592)
(m. ??)

There's some discrepancies between some of the threes, particularly with regards to which Hughs and Roberts were born and died at what times (in that 1630-1700 bracket of generations). Other trees seem quite remiss as in some of these generations the parents are listed as being born after the children, which doesn't make sense.

EDIT: Robert Forshaw's baptism I now HAVE found on OPC (assuming it's right - I'm still relying on the Trees and verifying). He is listed as Rob. and for that reason doesn't show up in a search for Robert. I found him in a search for Forshaw children of an Edward father. And unticked Exact Name Match (whoops). This found me the Robert and Jane marriage too.

Anyway, I hope this helps and I'm continuing this search myself. I've never reached the 1500s with a certainty that I have the right details so if these can be verified it would be exciting. Interestingly numerous Trees start listing Rufford as Cheshire tho in my research I can't find a mention of it historically ever being in this county. Tho obviously not all the above is found in Lancs OPC once we get far back enough.

Hope all is well.

Thanks

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 9th July 2017  

For Carol:
Catherine is at the same address in 1851, now aged 42(!), married but without Peter. The children William (19), Elizabeth (17), John (15), Alice (13), Mary (10), Peter (9), DOROTHY (7), Thomas (4) and Paul (2). We learn that she was born in Armagh, Ireland. Francis Hamil (sic) was also still at the same address as in 1841 and is more specific. He names Lochgaren, Armagh as his place of birth, supposedly in 1781.
Francis dies in 1856 in Wigan.

The 69-year old widower William Seddon is still further down the street with his unmarried children Paul (35), James (34) and Elizabeth (27). We learn that he was born in Chorley, Lancashire. It might be difficult to find his birth as the family was Catholic, but I think he was the son of PETER SEDDON and DOROTHY MARGISON, who married at St John's RC church in Wigan in 1781. I say this because one godparent at the baptism of William's oldest son Thomas was a certain William Margison, presumably a relative. William himself was not baptised at St John's, Wigan, but his children were, and his eldest daughter's name was Dorothy. Now Dorothy was not an unusual name, but it was nowhere near as common as Ann, Mary, Alice, Jane or Elizabeth that seemed to occur in every family. More about William's family later.

Catherine Hamell had in the meantime married Peter Seddon. The marriage took place in 1847 and the reference in the registers of Wigan&Leigh is ROW/3/153. The two youngest sons Thomas (b. 1847) and Paul (b. 1849) were registered and the mother's maiden name given as Hamell and Hammel.

Questions:
Why were the older children who were born after 1837 not registered, neither as Seddon nor Hamell? I suspect they were baptised at St Patrick's, as they are not in the registers of St John's. Unfortunately St Patrick's records are not online and I no longer live in Wigan to look for you.
It is still strange that after so many children (seven before Thomas and Paul and probably ones who died in infancy) they didn't marry and it makes me wonder whether one of them was still married to someone else, but probably not.

By 1871 only Thomas and Paul are at home. Peter and Catherine supposedly both abt. 62. They are living in Whelley. Catherine died aged 66 at 22 Birkett Bank, Ince in 1875 and Peter at Birkett Bank in 1881 aged 73. They were buried as Catholics in Wigan Cemetery.

I know that John and Caroline were not Catholics, but that does not mean that John is not the son of this family. He disappears after 1861. He may have gone to Birkenhead looking for work. Caroline was perhaps more important than the faith he had been brought up in. Not unusual. So far I have found no likelier family than this one for John Seddon.

Linda

More to come.

Posted by LEP1950 on 9th July 2017  

Hi Carol,

I'm glad you have got back to me as I'd done quite a bit of research. I don't know whether it's worth you joining ancestry to look for Peter and Catherine. I'm a member and, as far as I can see, no one seems to have got further back than John and Caroline. You also have to be careful as there are often mistakes, e.g. James was not the son of John and Caroline. A quick look at Lancashire birth records would have clarified this.

So this is what I am so far ASSUMING about the time before John and Caroline were living in Aspull:

1) Since John states in 1871 and 1891 that he was born in Wigan, and we know that it was Caroline and not John who was born in France (noted down incorrectly by the enumerator in 1881), we must presume at the moment that he was born in Wigan.

2) We know that his father's name was PETER from the marriage registration, and in view of the naming conventions at the time and the fact that three of the older children were named after three grandparents, it is highly likely that the fourth grandparent's name was Catherine.

3) The only Peter Seddon and Catherine to be found in the 1841 census in Wigan were the ones I mentioned in a previous mail. They were living in High Street, St George's ward and had five children. The eldest two were named WILLIAM and ELIZABETH, and I thought that these could possibly be the names of John's parents. Both Peter is supposedly 30 years old and Catherine 25, but ages were rounded down. Catherine was not born in this country.

With hindsight and after further research, there are several things to be noted here:

- Peter and Catherine were not married at this point of time
- There is no registration of the children under the name "Seddon" or of what turns out to be Catherine's maiden name HAMELL (also HAMEL/HAMILL)
- Two doors away is a Francis Hamill aged
60 with wife Margaret (aged 55), daughter Margaret (20) and sons James and Francis, both (15). All ages were rounded down. The two sons were born "in this county".

- A few doors further down is a William Seddon, a 55-year old weaver, with John (25), Paul (25), James (20), Elizabeth (15) and William (15). The names JAMES and PAUL become significant in 1861 when they are living with Peter and Catherine and are described as brothers of Peter.

I have to sign off now, but will continue in a couple of hours.

Linda

Posted by Carol McEwen on 9th July 2017  carolmcewen@slingshot.co.nz 

Thank you Linda - I Will give you the information that I have at this time: Starting with - the dates I have seem a little confused as you will see:
Peter Seddon b.1826 Wigan = Catherine b.c1829? Wigan; Son John Seddon b.c1839 Birkenhead, d. 20 June 1896 Shaws Fold Aspull, Int.23 June 1896, St Elizabeths Aspull= Caroline Baldwin b. Paris France d. 23 July 1898 Shaws Eold Aspull, Int 28 July 1898 St Elizabeths Aspull - the marries 8 June 1963 St Mary, Birkenhead Cheshire. Carolines parents William Baldwin b. c1814 Riston Lancashire, Emily ? b.c1821 Lancashire, Hampshire from this point I have the tree - I have managed to get the names of my grandmother Dorothy's brothers and sisters and some dates The confusing thing is that the dates for Peter and Catherine make them too young to be Johns parents. I am about to join Ancestry to search further and see if I can find some documentation about them. I tried recently looking at the mining in the area as Dorothy's male family members and her husband were miners. I founda site some time ago and also found names of miners but can no longer access that site. So once again thank you for responding to my search you have been very helpful. I look forward to further contact. If you know of anyone who needs assistance in the Mew Zealand area I would be only to willing to assist them. Thank Carol

Posted by LEP1950 on 30th June 2017  

Hello Carol,
Have found out a lot more about this Peter and Catherine, who did eventually marry after having several children. I'll wait to see whether you write again.
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 28th June 2017  

Carol,
I found out that John and Caroline's first child was a daughter called Catherine, born in Birkenhead in 1864. She died in Aspull aged 5 in 1869. The first two daughters of the couple were CATHERINE (another Catherine later) and EMILY. The two sons after JOHN T. were PETER and WILLIAM. We know that John's father's name was Peter from the marriage register, where Caroline's father is listed as William. From the 1851 census, apart from the father's name William, we have the mother's name Emily. I think it more than likely that John Seddon's mother's name was Catherine. I haven't found a marriage of Peter and Catherine, but after a long search I did find a Peter Seddon (30) with a Catherine (25) - ages possibly rounded down in this census - in Wigan with the children William (9), Elizabeth (7), John (6), Alice (4) and Mary (1). Ok, John's age would be slightly out, but this is not so unusual.
I am at the moment presuming that this Peter and Catherine did not marry. There are no baptisms for the children under the name "Seddon", but they could, of course have been Catholic or non-Conformists. I am still thinking about this - and searching, too!!
You probably know this, but the child James with John and Caroline in the 1891 census is their grandson and not their son. Apart from Caroline's age, the maiden name is recorded as "Seddon" and the baptism record gives the mother as Emily Seddon.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th June 2017  

Carol,

I'm not sure what you already know about John Seddon and Caroline Baldwin, but they married at St Mary's, Birkenhead on June 8th 1863. Cheshire marriage registers are at the Wirral and the reference for this certificate is BK8/5/281. Familysearch gives John's father's name as PETER and Caroline's as WM. Caroline can be easily found in Birkenhead in 1851 with her parents William and Emily Baldwin and siblings - at that moment in time - Emma (9), Charles (5), Harriet (1) and Mary (5 months). I didn't go into the family any further as I don't know what you already know. Caroline herself was a servant in Birkenhead in the 1861 census. She and her brother Charles were seemingly born in France.
John really is more difficult. There is no obvious baptism for him in Wigan/Haigh/Aspull. Catholic? Non-Conformist? Moved to the area as a child and states Wigan as place of birth in several censuses although this was not the case? Anyway perhaps the father's name PETER may help you. If you want me to look any further, please tell me, but you may know all the above already.

Linda

Posted by Carol McEwen on 24th June 2017  carolmcewen@slingshot.co.nz 

Looking for Pam Seddon - re Ralph, William, Thomas, John, James and Thomas - A John is my gg grandfather born c1839 and am seeking his family. Did this John marry a Caroline Baldwin

Posted by JBrown86 on 23rd June 2017  

Thanks for the replies Linda -

the Margt death 1808 fits well and explains why the first child of Daniel's next marriage would have been named Margt also. I'd favour that (even if the baptism hasn't been found) over an 1815 alternate name with Margery (tho let me know if I've made too much of a leap there - I base it on Margaret's birth details on the censuses). Margery seems to run in the Forshaw and Wignall families, and Daniel, Robert and Joyce and perhaps also Edward seem to run in the Forshaw family. Perhaps Margery and Margaret are also the same, but Margaret was not baptised for some time (even after one or two younger siblings - I imagine this is possible..?). Anyway, her exact baptism date and place is not as important to me as pinning down that she is indeed my ancestor - then I can go further back. So I'll focus on that :)


Assuming Daniel 1734/4 is my ancestor, with first wife Margt and second wife Margery Wignall (thru whom my Margaret Forshaw would have come) - his parents would be Robert and Jane nee Culshaw (m. 1738). There are a few marriages between the Forshaws and Culshaws in this area (two with Robert Forshaws and Jane Culshaws). They would have had seven children - Edward, Richard, Daniel, Jane, Robert, Mary and Joyce (!). Edward likely the father of Robert and there is a matching baptism -

Baptism: 11 May 1718 St Mary the Virgin, Rufford, Lancashire, England
Rob. Forshaw - Son of Edward Forshaw
Abode: Rufford
Register: Baptisms 1669 - 1782, Page 34, Entry 14
Source: LDS Film 1526059

Edward's first daur (Leyland locale, tho the rest seem to be Rufford) was a Joyce (1710) and his last child I can see a Daniel. He would have married Mary Whittle

Marriage: 30 Apr 1710 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Edward Forshaw - Leyland
Mary Whittle - Leyland
Married by pub.
Register: Marriages 1655 - 1711, Page 25, Entry 7
Source: Original register held at Lancashire Archives

and is likely the son of a Robert himself

Baptism: 13 Aug 1682 St Mary the Virgin, Rufford, Lancashire, England
Edward Forshaw - Son of Robt. Forshaw
Notes: [Date & child's name illegible in PR but available in & recorded from LDS Film
1658818 Bishop's Transcripts]
Register: Baptisms 1669 - 1782, Page 10, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 1526059

Edward dying in 1727 explains why 1725 Daniel was the last child.

No OPC marriages match Edward's dad Robert. I think he dies 1682 Rufford. A family tree on Ancestry goes quite far back on the Forshaw line which is exciting - if I can get back to the 1600s on this line, knowing it to be all correct, it will be the furthest back I have gone on any line with a knowledge of correctness. Hope that makes sense :) It seems the family tree has Rufford as previously part of Cheshire, tho Rufford's wikipedia page makes no mention of it ever being in that county. I'll scour ancestry records and familysearch records to see what comes up for a name like Hugh (Robert's first son, elder brother of Edward) - which is the name the family tree I saw has.

But I don't mean to get too far ahead so please warn me if it seems I am doing so - obviously I need to confirm that Margaret FORSHAW turned MARROW turned MYERS was indeed of Daniel and Margery (even if I never get an exact birth date). Would we consider that she was actually a daur of Daniel and Margaret, born shortly before Margaret's death, then either not baptised at all, or baptised (as Margery, for example) after the remarriage (Daniel & Margery)? Then again Margery is listed as daur of Daniel & Margery in the baptism record.

Thanks again

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

A convenient death:

Burial: 1 Mar 1808 St Mary the Virgin, Rufford, Lancashire, England
Margaret Forshaw - wife of Daniel Forshaw
Died: 28 Feb 1808
Age: 61
Abode: Rufford
Register: Burials 1783 - 1812, Page 20, Entry 581
Source: LDS Film 1526059

Her maiden name was possibly Leyland. Her death in 1808 would make a remarriage of Daniel in 1810 quite possible.

All for tonight!
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Jon,

I've had another look around. I think John Wignall married Margery Holding on July 25th, 1765 in Croston. Between 1766 and 1784, they had 11 children, if I have counted correctly. Margery was born in 1774. What is interesting is that Margery had four illegitimate daughters between 1796 and 1805, an Alice whose father is named as Richard Sergeant, an Ellen and Esther, who were christened on the same day and were possibly twins, and then another Esther. Margery's sisters Ellen and Margaret also seem to have given birth to illegitimate children. To me, it seems more likely that an older man who needed a housekeeper would be prepared to take on a woman with four (probably three as one Esther seems to have died) daughters. But I don't think it was so unusual to have gaps of 20 years and more between marriage partners. Often he younger women were second or third wives, as you say. With Daniel Forshaw, Margery seems to have had the children Robert (1811), Margery (1815) and Joyce (1818). I wouldn't rule out the 1815 Margery, but possibly there was an illegitimate Margaret betwen 1805 and 1810, whose baptism we can't find.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Jon,
There's a scan of the baptism register for Margery, bapt. 1815, on ancestry. Her father's name was definitely DANIEL and not DAVID.
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd June 2017  

Hi Jon,

I'm off out now (eldest grandchild's birthday), but I just wanted to tell you that on familysearch last night after I had sent off my message, I found the baptism of a MARGERY FORSHAW to a Daniel Forshaw and Margery on 31st December 1815. I know it seems a bit late, but I wonder whether this was Margaret. It wouldn't be the first time I have seen Margaret/Margery used interchangeably on censuses.
On lan-opc, this baptism is recorded as daughter of David and Marjorie. Profession is "farmer", which was Daniel's profession. I wonder whether the original only shows "Da." I couldn't find a marriage of a David Forshaw in Rufford nor any other baptisms to this alleged couple. I don't think Daniel and Margery had many children, probably since she was quite old when she married.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 22nd June 2017  

Hi Linda,
thanks for touching base. From my own research I now heavily favour the Daniel Forshaw and Margery Wignall marriage as Margaret's parents, being in the right place (Rufford) and time to match Margaret's birth (1810-ish) even if her baptism is for whatever reason not recorded. The Joyce connection is also huge and led me to the same conclusion. Based on the son of Robert I favoured Daniels born to Roberts tho also considering the place (Rufford, Croston, and Ormskirk all reasonable) with a favouritims toward Rufford.

I considered 1792 Daniel also - however I did not find the information that you have found that rules him out, so that's a big help. The only reasonable Margery Wignall on OPC is a 1774 one (Rufford). Margery Forshaw dies in 1825 in Rufford, aged 53, so either the age recorded is a little off, or she was baptised at two or three years old. Or I need to find a different Margery Wignall that is not found on OPC. If I have the right one she married Daniel in her mid- to late-30s.

Re. Daniel, until you ruled out 1792 Daniel I was stuck with either him (being 18 or 20 years younger than his wife Margery - not sure if reasonable), or with one of two others - 1743/4 Daniel (Rufford, father Robert) or 1749/50 Daniel Alty (Rufford, base son of Robert Forshaw and Ellen Alty, who marry a couple years later, so to my understanding it's reasonable that this Daniel may have then gone by the surname Forshaw from this early point of his life).

1759 Daniel dies in the same year, and I think that's his Dad dying in 1764. The only other Daniel between 1749/50 and 1792 in a 1776 burial, seemingly of an Adult.

Only 4 Daniel F's are on the 1841 Census - three born after 1800 and therefore not mine. And a 1791 one who you have already found married to Ann/Nancy. The children found with them show Margt from 1815ish, so we can rule out 1792 Daniel from having first married Margery then later on Ann (after Margery's death).

Leaving the two Daniels from the 1740s... in this case Daniel would have been 25 to 30 years older than Margery his wife. Possibly she was his second or third wife, even? No reference is made to Daniel's marital status in their record.

Clearly my Daniel is deceased before the 1850s, and likely even before 1841 as he is not to be found in the Census. Whether or not Margery is the correct marriage for him, this leaves me (with the OPC records) to deduce that he is the Daniel dying in 1822 at age 78. This means a circa 1744 birth and being thirty or so years older than Margery. Not unheard of though - on my mother's side, my 70-something ancestor married their live-in 20-something servant girl between censuses after his wife died. They even had a child or two together. Maybe Margery was not Daniel's first marriage. My musings so far....




I think 1774 Margery is of John Wignall (d. 1817?) and Margery Holding/Holden. John's parentage not known. Margery's: Richard Holden/Margery Fairclough, William Fairclough/? . That said, I will concern myself more with those once confirmed that Margery Wignall is indeed my ancestor.

Thanks for any assistance offered and hope all is well

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st June 2017  

Jon,

I have perhaps been too quick. It looks like the Daniel born in 1791/92 married someone called Ann. He was still alive in 1861. He died in 1865.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st June 2017  

Hi Jon,

Don't know whether this is your line as I don't have much time at all this week to do much research, but I found an interesting baptism of a DANIEL FORSHAW at St Mary's Church, Rufford on 22 April 1792. He was the son of ROBERT and ALICE FORSHAW. He probably went on to marry Margery Wignall(daughter of JOHN WIGNALL) on July 17th 1810. I found the baptisms of two children - a son Robert in 1811 and a daughter called Joyce (Interesting!!) in 1818 in Rufford. Couldn't find any other children to date. No Margaret Forshaw or an illegitimate Margaret Wignall (well, there was one actually, but in 1822 and elsewhere). Anyway, it might be worth trying to trace these people.
It will probably be the weekend before I have time to go deeper into this.

Linda

Posted by Elizabeth Prior on 21st June 2017  

I've been in direct contact with Albert about Ann Grundy. The Wigan Ann is not the right one. Having had a dig around on Lan-OPC and Lancashire BMD the most likely candidate is the Ann Grundy who died age 83 in Bury in the September quarter of 1932.

Posted by Margie on 21st June 2017  

To Albert /Julie.

From the records Wigan Cemetery (Lower Ince)

Grundy Nathan 76 yrs 12 Alfred St. Swinley 19-Apr 1922 A 351 Non Con
Grundy Ann 78 Yrs Sterling St 10-Jan 1927 A 351 Non Con
Rigby
Rigby Samuel 60 59 Darlington Street East 26-Dec 1904 A 351 Non Con

Is this the Ann you are looking for,

Margie

Posted by Julie A on 19th June 2017  

For Albert Smith
Hello!
Regarding your query about Ann Grundy's death in Wigan in 1927, have you seen a copy of the death certificate? If not, it might be worth ordering one from:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
(This is the official government website and I believe the cheapest way to order certificates - although they have recently had a trial to use cheaper PDFs, which may or may not return).
If you are lucky, the information on the certificate might state who Ann was a 'wife' or 'widow' of, and you might also recognise the informant of the death as a family member of Ann's that you know of. Using the above link, I searched and could find just one statutory registration for an Ann Grundy who died in Jan - Mar 1927.

On another website, I found a Probate entry for an Ann Grundy who died in Jan 1927, which may, or may not be the same Ann (always check):
Address 8 Stirling-street, Wigan, widow, died 6 Jan 1927. Probate to Nathan Rigby, painter and decorator.

If 'Nathan Rigby' rings a bell, you may well have found your Ann. If not, it's worth checking to see if he was related to your Ann in some way.

Regarding info on Joseph Rigby, have you seen the marriage certificate? If not, again it could be worth ordering one as they usually include the name of the father of the groom (& bride), the occupation, and, if lucky, a relative as a witness.

Hope this helps, Julie