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Posted by geraldine long on 29th December 2016  

hello Carol
The mother of William and Martha Heaton was Jane Robinson.

Posted by carol on 29th December 2016  carol.dougherty@btinternet.com 

Can anyone help me with a specific query please - twins William and Martha Heaton born in Dec 1837 to father William Heaton - who was the mother?

Posted by LEP1950 on 27th December 2016  

Silvi,
Thanks for letting me know. I'll browse around tonight to see whether I can find anything. For some reason I had thought her mother may have been Hannah. Will look through my scribbled notes to find out why.

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 26th December 2016  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Merry Christmas Linda,
I ordered the birth cert of Selina in Cheshire and it states that her mother was Ann who gave birth to her in Crickets lane Ashton under Lyne.
I looked on the history of Ashton in 1846 when she was born on the 1st of June and there was a workhouse in the area which had been an infirmary so I thought maybe she was born there.I have trawled the marriage records for 1846/7 and there are none married to a William in Lancashire. Will try Cheshire at later dates too.
Silvi

Posted by JBrown86 on 25th December 2016  

Yep, it's that family time of year when we all eat a little too much! Hope that your Christmas period goes smoothly! Will contact at a later point perhaps after the NY

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd December 2016  

Hi Jon,
I don't think the Pairpoints were Catholics, but Betty Unsworth definitely was. It is stated in her burial record. You see this a lot. People were buried in the Protestant church graveyard, but the funeral did not take place in the church.

The Unsworths and the Boardmanns seem to have been quite prominent Catholic families in Ashton. They were also "recusants" (very brave!). In 1717, Edward Unsworth and John Boardman registered their estates as "papists". This was at a time when it was extremely dangerous to be a Catholic priest and when reprisals, such as confiscation of lands and fines, took place against Catholics in general. It was also a time when it was extremely dangerous to keep records. That's why it's very difficult to find Catholic records from Elizabethan times up to 1791 (Catholic Relief Act). I read that most records from this time are "hostile" records, i.e. those made by the state or its agents - the Anglican clergy.

It says explicitly in one of the Pairpoint/Unsworth baptisms that Betty was the daughter of John Unsworth and Peggy. The only marriage that seems to fit is the one of John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman in 1769. The Unwsorth and Boardman families, as I said, were seemingly very strict Catholics in this period. I don't suppose it went down very well that Betty Unsworth married James Pierpoint.

I have to think a bit more about James Pierpoint's likely ancestry. I have visitors over Christmas and don't know whether I'll get to do much research. I haven't found the document you sent anywhere on the internet yet either.

Merry Christmas!

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 23rd December 2016  

Thanks Linda for that info. For what it may help, I ran an OPC search for Pierpoint with no other filters. Searching for "RC," on the page bring up not a single find - not even in any of the marriage records. So the Pierpoints were either simply not Catholic or even their marriages were not done in CoE chapels.

The one solitary result suggesting Catholicism amongst the thousand on that Pierpoint search was Elizabeth Pierpoint nee Unsworth my relative; her burial record 1834 references her having no ceremony for being a "papist". James and Elizabeth's children were all baptised CoE so maybe Catholicism only ran in the Unsworth side of that family.

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd December 2016  

Jon,
I haven't had time to look at the Unsworths yet, but I did have Betty as the mother of Alice Pierpoint. The Sanderson baptisms had the following godparents:

Maria (1791) - Joannes Simpson, Anna Race
Thomas (1793) - Thomas Caldwell, Maria Rigby
Joannes (1796)- Radulphus Caldwell, Sarah BOARDMAN
Petrus (1798)- Joannes BOARDMAN, Martha UNSWORTH
Jacobus (1800) Jacobus UNSWORTH, Anna Caldwell
Joannes (1803) Thomas UNSWORTH, Margarita Ratcliff

Then there were the two children of Elizabeth (nee Sanderson) and James UNSWORTH:

Helena (1801)- Thomas Caldwell, Anna Gibbins
Catherine (1803) - Radulphus SANDERSON, Maria UNSWORTH.


I've written the names as they appeared in the original records.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 22nd December 2016  

I presently have Elizabeth Pierpoint nee Unsworth as dying in 1834 aged 64 (Ashton). Not 100% sure it's correct. There's another James and Elizabeth Pierpoint from Lodge Lane Ashton having children around that time, but 64 would have been too old to have children, and at least one child is born and bap 1835, so this is an older Elizabeth (likely mine) born c.1770. That fits well with the John Unsworth/Margaret Boardman marriage from 1769, though there's no baptism recorded and the first reason coming to mind is that these families may have been Catholic like the Sandersons that later marry into the family. Makes it hard to pair up births marriages and deaths when you have to account for some not even being in the records due to denomination.
Eliz. d. 1834 is listed as wife of James Pierpoint. The only reasonable James Pierpoint death to match (considering Parish/Chapel) is 1822 aged 46 - this perfectly matches a 1776 baptism in Winwick (father John Pierpoint). However, this would mean Eliz should have been listed as widow not wife in her burial record.
The whole situation is made harder considering that we don't even know the age difference between Eliz and James. If Eliz was not even his first marriage, and he were something like 20 years older than her, then there are different baptisms that could have been James Pierpoint, all of which makes it harder to use OPC or BMD to determine exactly which death is his (being unable to use age at death). The same applies re. John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman and finding their death dates despite no indication as to the difference between their ages. That said I think Margaret Unsworth nee Boardman dies in 1806. Just thinking out loud as I research so you know where I'm coming from :)

Jon

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Hi Linda,

It seems these families - Sanderson, Boardman, Unsworth, and to a lesser extent Pierpoints are all closely mixed. Sandersons and Unsworths in particular seem to be Catholic.
Do you mind providing the godparents names for each of those baptisms? None of the records I've found seem to give them.

Perhaps we have hit a dead end re. Thomas at the moment, with an idea that he may have come from John Sanderson and Ellen Physwick (if his reported age at censuses was simply a little out). Would that be correct?

Also, what do you think of my conclusions about the parentage and grand-parentage of Alice Pairpoint, Thomas Sanderson's wife?

I presently have her as born 1801 to James Pairpoint/Elizabeth Unsworth. Nothing solid on the Pairpoint line yet, but I think her Unsworth grandparents were John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman based on information in the last two or three baptisms of James and Elizabeth's children. A document I found and have sent to your email would suggest that the parents to register their marriage would suggest that the parents were John Unsworth and John Boardman, with an Abram connection in there for further support. This leads to to believe that the parents of John Unsworth (Elizabeth's father) were John Unsworth and Sarah Edwardson. I haven't progressed past there at this point. The document does not explicitly state that the relationship of the two Johns to the married parties was that of parent. Eager to see what you think :)

Thanks
Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 21st December 2016  

It's interesting that at two of the baptisms I found (John 1796) and Peter (1798) two godparents were called BOARDMAN.
I think Ellen (nee Physwick/Physick) seems to be still living in Culcheth in 1841. Age is given as 75, but ages were rounded down and so she could be one to four years older. She is with a 55-year-old William, whom I take to be her son. Again his age could be 1-3 years older (b. 1786-88). I don't think four as we have a Thomas who died as a baby in 1789. So I'm pretty sure that John and Ellen had a William and a Thomas in the 1780s and probably an Elizabeth and a Ralph.

I had found the birth of an Ellen Physick/Physwick in 1761 to a father called John, but this was at St Mary the Virgin, West Derby. So I don't know. Ellen herself seems to have also been a Roman Catholic. In the baptism records for Culcheth that were published in Latin, it was always mentioned if one of the parents was Protestant.

I honestly can't find a trace of another Thomas Sanderson apart from the one born in 1793. Of course, ages were often out in those days. Three or four years is plausible.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Sorry: forgot to include: yes the Unsworth connection is very interesting. My ancestor Alice Pairpoint/Pierpoint/Pearpoint comes from a James Pierpoint and Elizbeth Unsworth. I have a bit on the Unsworth side, none absolutely certain, but I'm relatively confident of the next two generations back from her (well, the first one, anyway) - 1. John Unsworth/Margaret Boardman
2. John Unsworth/Sarah Edwardson.

But I'll try not get distracted and figure out this Sanderson business :)

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Filtering for Ralph Sandersons on Lancs OPC:

The earliest mention is a 1737 baptism of Ralph in Warrington. parents James and Martha.

An adult Ralph is bur 1746 in Winwick (abode Culcheth).

Ralph Sanderson of Ince has three sons buried in 1757 and 1758 (two Johns). He dies and buried 1860. All burials in Wigan.

Ralph Sanderson marries Ann Woods in 1809

Marriage: 16 Nov 1809 St Luke (formerly St Wilfrid), Farnworth (Widnes), Lancashire, England
Ralph Sanderson - Weaver, Farnworth near Prescot
Ann Woods - (X), Spinster, Farnworth near Prescot
Witness: James Henshaw; Thomas Simcock
Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
Register: Marriages 1781 - 1812, Page 139, Entry 1981
Source: LDS Film 1655235 item 4

No other consequential appearance of the word "Ralph" (most are Ralphs marrying a Sanderson girl or Ralphs from other families witnessing a Sanderson marriage).

So there's history of the name - perhaps some of the above are part of this same family - John's (husband of Ellen) uncles or father perhaps? Esp. since he may have had a son Ralph as you mentioned.

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Hi Linda,

Typing my "notes" here as I go:
I ran a search on Lancs OPC for all Sanderson events no filter of any kind. A Ctrl + F search for "RC," to bring up all RC Church events gave me 18 (obviously there could be others on FamilySearch such as the Culcheth ones we find in RC records), but summarising the Lancs OPC findings here.

The earliest entry containing an RC mention is this baptism:

Baptism: 21 Jul 1757 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson -
Godparents: Charles Ince; Frances Ince
Baptised by: Rd. Mr Charles Brockholes
Register: Baptisms 1732 - 1774

The next two entries containing RC are both marriages:

Marriage: 21 May 1758 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson - Wigan
Mary Turner - Orrell
Married by Revd. Mr Charles Brockhole
Source: Original register at LRO

Marriage: 8 May 1809 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ed. Sanderson -
Jane Layland -
Register: Marriages 1806 - 1822, Page

The next 13 entries containing RC all pertain to children of Ralph Sanderson (!) and Mary nee Woods - 10 baptisms and 3 burials. They seemed intent on having a John - 3 of the baptisms are Johns as 2 of the 3 burials were infant deaths of Johns.

The last two of the 18 entries are as follows:

Marriage: 28 Jun 1835 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Atherton -
Catharine Sanderson -
Witness: Wm. Birchall; Esther Birchall
Register: Marriages 1823 - 1837, Page

Burial: 9 Apr 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Saunderson -
Age: 80
Abode: Hope St
Cause of Death: Old Age
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO



Filtering for Culcheth results regardless of denomination (on Lancs OPC):
The earliest Sanderson recorded on OPC in Culcheth is Margaret:
Baptism: 2 Nov 1621 Parish Church, Newchurch in Culcheth, Lancashire, England
Margarit Sandersonn -
Register: Baptisms 1599 - 1730, Page 7
Source: Original Registers at Chester

The next four entries (three baptisms and a marriage between 1634 and 1642) all have names recorded in Latin and take place in Newchurch in Culcheth Parish Church. I will not go into detail on the remainder of the 48 entries containing Culcheth, as I know we're making ground without trying to "work forward", but here are some of the more notable ones:


Nothing between 1642 and 1728. (only Esther Sanderson bur. Leigh but abode Culcheth)

1728/9 - two Annes (wife and daur of John) Sanderson d. and bur. Culcheth

1731/2 - son and wife of Henry Sanderson d. and bur. Culcheth. Henry bur. 1747.

1752- Thos and John Sanderson bur. Culcheth.

Some children (and a wife) of a Henry Sanderson bap. and bur. from 1750-1770. (Henry d. 1807)

Then the 1789 Thomas burial that you already showed me. Then the James and John in 1801 and 1803.

Others worth attention:

Burial: 20 Aug 1813 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Sanderson -
Age: 74
Abode: Culcheth
Buried by: Gs. Chippindall, Curate
Register: Burials 1813 - 1837, Page 13, Entry 103
Source: LDS Film 1885711

Burial: 7 Nov 1846 Parish Church, Newchurch in Culcheth, Lancashire, England
Ellen Sanderson -
Age: 83 yrs
Abode: Culcheth
Buried by: F. A. Bartlett
Register: Burials 1843 - 1856, Page 27, Entry 212
Source: Original Registers at Chester

The remainder are well into the 1800s and not really of any concern to our research.

Just some notes :)

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Jon, I'm confusing you again. In my first message from December 20th I failed to write "Physwick" after "olim" in the Latin version, and towards the end of the message I spoke of John and Elizabeth when I meant John and Ellen. I always read the messages through, but I am always astonished at the number of errors and missing letters that still go through!!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Jon,
Marriages had to take place in a CofE church and many Catholic couples married twice, but some only once in a CoE church. Catholics were also often buried in the graveyard of the parish churh (usually CofE). But they liked to be baptised as Catholics.

John and Ellen (nee Physwick/Physick) definitely had one child before 1790:

Burial: 7 Jun 1789 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Thomas Sanderson - son of John Sanderson
Age: 0
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 63, Entry 15
Source: LDS Film 1655876

There were other children of a John Sanderson with burials at Ashton chapel, but I don't know whether they were children of this John, as the place of abode is not given, and anyway we don't know when John moved to Culcheth.

The Elizabeth I found married James Unsworth at All Saints, Wigan:

Marriage: 21 Apr 1800 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Unsworth - this Parish
Elizabeth Sanderson - (X), this Parish
Witness: Robert Cross; Mathias Smith
Banns Read: 2 Feb 1800, 2nd: 9 Feb 1800, 3rd: 16 Feb 1800
Married by Banns by: John Prince Curate
Register: Marriages 1766 - 1812, Page 691, Entry 4
Source: LDS Film 1885708

I could only find two children - Ellen and Catherine, who was born in 1803, and so I take this to be Elizabeth's burial:

Burial: 21 Nov 1804 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Unsworth - wife of James Unsworth
Age: 25
Abode: Croft
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 160, Entry 22
Source: LDS Film 1655876

This would place her birth around 1779 if she really was 25 years old when she died. She could well have been the eldest child of John and Ellen.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Hi Jon,

It seems that Culcheth was basically in Catholic hands until around 1800. I read this on the internet. There is also a publication of some Culcheth baptisms (1791-1825) on the internet and the very first baptism is of Maria Sanderson. This is what it says in Latin:

Die 4 junii 1791 nata et die 16 ejusdem mensis et anni, baptizata fuit Maria Sanderson, filia Joannis et Helenae Sanderson (olim) conjugum. Patrinus uit Joannes Simpson, matrina Anna Race.

Born on the 4th day of June and baptised on the 16th of the same month and year was Mary Sanderson, daughter of John Sanderson and his wife Ellen (nee Physwick): godfather was John Simpson, godmother Ann race.

You will note that Ellen's maiden name is given as "Physwick" in this entry. in the other entries it is "Physick". Thomas was born in 1793 and the others as I said in a previous message. There is also a second John born after the death of the first one. He was born in 1803. This wasn't on familysearch or ancestry. What I did notice in the six baptism entries was that godfather or godmother was often an "Unsworth".I found this interesting. Also in 1801 and 1803 a certain James Unsworth and his wife Elizabeth (nee SANDERSON) had two daughters - Ellen and Catherine. One of Catherine's sponsors was "Radulphus Sanderson". I wondered whether Elizabeth Sanderson and Ralph Sanderson were older children (pre-1791 and post 1779) of John and Elizabeth. The fact that we can't find any baptisms before 1791 doesn't mean to say that there weren't any children. It's really good fortune to have these.

Linda

The information was from Catholic Record Society, Miscellanea, Vol. 8 1913

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th December 2016  

Hi Linda
That's interesting - one or two things I noted led me to believe that the Sandersons in the area generally were Catholic - and explains why so little for them shows up in Lancs OPC (only marriages it would seem).

I wonder if Helena Physick is Ellen Phiswick who married John Sanderson 1779. Phiswick seems to be an alternate spelling of the Fishwick surname. That said it seems those catholic baptism records frmo Culcheth only modify the first names to Latin - John's surname remains Sanderson so maybe she truly was a Physick (could still be Ellen from 1779 if the CoE priest recorded it wrongly in the marriage). The question then becomes why did they wait a good twelve years to have their first child, as I can't seem to find any baptisms to them on Lancs OPC Ancestry or FamilySearch until that first one in 1791.
Wonder if I can find an original copy of the Thomas baptism 1793. I'm very reluctant to go forward with that one so far given his census reports and age at death which all support a 1797-ish birth. I did notice the occasional Sanderson record from a Culcheth RC church even on Lancs OPC, so maybe the family in general were Catholic. What has me focussing on these couples at the moment is the Abram connection listed under John's name - but then there are two Johns. Perhaps the same John married both Ellen Phiswick and Ellen Bayly, but Ellen Bayly died (and this is not shown on Lancs OPC) between 1775 and 1779, so John remarried an Abram girl. Ellen Phiswick/Physick (if the same person, which I'm inclined to think they are) is certainly alive in the 1790s for those children's baptisms.

I'll look for burials of Ellen Sandersons, esp. RC ones.

Thanks

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th December 2016  

Jon,

The James born in 1800 died a few months later. There was possibly a John who was born abt. 1797 since he died in 1803 aged 6.

Burial: 22 Feb 1801 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Sanderson - son of John Sanderson & Ellen
Age: 0
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 136, Entry 12
Source: LDS Film 1655876


Burial: 11 Mar 1803 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson - son of John Sanderson & Ellen
Age: 6
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 150, Entry 13
Source: LDS Film 1655876


Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th December 2016  

Jon,

I found four RC baptisms in Culcheth to John Sanderson and Helen.

Maria (1791), mother Helena
Thomas (1793), mother Helena Physick
Peter (1798), mother Helena Physick
Jacobus(James,1800), mother Helena Physick

They are also on ancestry under "All England, Select Births and Baptisms, 1538-1975). I can't copy them or they won't appear. As I said Thomas's age would be a bit out, 4 or 5 years. So I don't know.
But Thomas and Alice did have a John and an Ellen (parents of Thomas?) and a James and a Betty, who I take to be Alice's parents after looking at the records - James Parpoint&Betty Unsworth. So maybe Thomas just made himself younger!!

Linda