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Posted by LEP1950 on 21st December 2016  

It's interesting that at two of the baptisms I found (John 1796) and Peter (1798) two godparents were called BOARDMAN.
I think Ellen (nee Physwick/Physick) seems to be still living in Culcheth in 1841. Age is given as 75, but ages were rounded down and so she could be one to four years older. She is with a 55-year-old William, whom I take to be her son. Again his age could be 1-3 years older (b. 1786-88). I don't think four as we have a Thomas who died as a baby in 1789. So I'm pretty sure that John and Ellen had a William and a Thomas in the 1780s and probably an Elizabeth and a Ralph.

I had found the birth of an Ellen Physick/Physwick in 1761 to a father called John, but this was at St Mary the Virgin, West Derby. So I don't know. Ellen herself seems to have also been a Roman Catholic. In the baptism records for Culcheth that were published in Latin, it was always mentioned if one of the parents was Protestant.

I honestly can't find a trace of another Thomas Sanderson apart from the one born in 1793. Of course, ages were often out in those days. Three or four years is plausible.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Sorry: forgot to include: yes the Unsworth connection is very interesting. My ancestor Alice Pairpoint/Pierpoint/Pearpoint comes from a James Pierpoint and Elizbeth Unsworth. I have a bit on the Unsworth side, none absolutely certain, but I'm relatively confident of the next two generations back from her (well, the first one, anyway) - 1. John Unsworth/Margaret Boardman
2. John Unsworth/Sarah Edwardson.

But I'll try not get distracted and figure out this Sanderson business :)

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Filtering for Ralph Sandersons on Lancs OPC:

The earliest mention is a 1737 baptism of Ralph in Warrington. parents James and Martha.

An adult Ralph is bur 1746 in Winwick (abode Culcheth).

Ralph Sanderson of Ince has three sons buried in 1757 and 1758 (two Johns). He dies and buried 1860. All burials in Wigan.

Ralph Sanderson marries Ann Woods in 1809

Marriage: 16 Nov 1809 St Luke (formerly St Wilfrid), Farnworth (Widnes), Lancashire, England
Ralph Sanderson - Weaver, Farnworth near Prescot
Ann Woods - (X), Spinster, Farnworth near Prescot
Witness: James Henshaw; Thomas Simcock
Married by Banns by: William Thompson - Minister
Register: Marriages 1781 - 1812, Page 139, Entry 1981
Source: LDS Film 1655235 item 4

No other consequential appearance of the word "Ralph" (most are Ralphs marrying a Sanderson girl or Ralphs from other families witnessing a Sanderson marriage).

So there's history of the name - perhaps some of the above are part of this same family - John's (husband of Ellen) uncles or father perhaps? Esp. since he may have had a son Ralph as you mentioned.

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Hi Linda,

Typing my "notes" here as I go:
I ran a search on Lancs OPC for all Sanderson events no filter of any kind. A Ctrl + F search for "RC," to bring up all RC Church events gave me 18 (obviously there could be others on FamilySearch such as the Culcheth ones we find in RC records), but summarising the Lancs OPC findings here.

The earliest entry containing an RC mention is this baptism:

Baptism: 21 Jul 1757 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson -
Godparents: Charles Ince; Frances Ince
Baptised by: Rd. Mr Charles Brockholes
Register: Baptisms 1732 - 1774

The next two entries containing RC are both marriages:

Marriage: 21 May 1758 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson - Wigan
Mary Turner - Orrell
Married by Revd. Mr Charles Brockhole
Source: Original register at LRO

Marriage: 8 May 1809 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ed. Sanderson -
Jane Layland -
Register: Marriages 1806 - 1822, Page

The next 13 entries containing RC all pertain to children of Ralph Sanderson (!) and Mary nee Woods - 10 baptisms and 3 burials. They seemed intent on having a John - 3 of the baptisms are Johns as 2 of the 3 burials were infant deaths of Johns.

The last two of the 18 entries are as follows:

Marriage: 28 Jun 1835 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Atherton -
Catharine Sanderson -
Witness: Wm. Birchall; Esther Birchall
Register: Marriages 1823 - 1837, Page

Burial: 9 Apr 1847 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Saunderson -
Age: 80
Abode: Hope St
Cause of Death: Old Age
Notes: pd.
Source: Original register at LRO



Filtering for Culcheth results regardless of denomination (on Lancs OPC):
The earliest Sanderson recorded on OPC in Culcheth is Margaret:
Baptism: 2 Nov 1621 Parish Church, Newchurch in Culcheth, Lancashire, England
Margarit Sandersonn -
Register: Baptisms 1599 - 1730, Page 7
Source: Original Registers at Chester

The next four entries (three baptisms and a marriage between 1634 and 1642) all have names recorded in Latin and take place in Newchurch in Culcheth Parish Church. I will not go into detail on the remainder of the 48 entries containing Culcheth, as I know we're making ground without trying to "work forward", but here are some of the more notable ones:


Nothing between 1642 and 1728. (only Esther Sanderson bur. Leigh but abode Culcheth)

1728/9 - two Annes (wife and daur of John) Sanderson d. and bur. Culcheth

1731/2 - son and wife of Henry Sanderson d. and bur. Culcheth. Henry bur. 1747.

1752- Thos and John Sanderson bur. Culcheth.

Some children (and a wife) of a Henry Sanderson bap. and bur. from 1750-1770. (Henry d. 1807)

Then the 1789 Thomas burial that you already showed me. Then the James and John in 1801 and 1803.

Others worth attention:

Burial: 20 Aug 1813 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Mary Sanderson -
Age: 74
Abode: Culcheth
Buried by: Gs. Chippindall, Curate
Register: Burials 1813 - 1837, Page 13, Entry 103
Source: LDS Film 1885711

Burial: 7 Nov 1846 Parish Church, Newchurch in Culcheth, Lancashire, England
Ellen Sanderson -
Age: 83 yrs
Abode: Culcheth
Buried by: F. A. Bartlett
Register: Burials 1843 - 1856, Page 27, Entry 212
Source: Original Registers at Chester

The remainder are well into the 1800s and not really of any concern to our research.

Just some notes :)

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Jon, I'm confusing you again. In my first message from December 20th I failed to write "Physwick" after "olim" in the Latin version, and towards the end of the message I spoke of John and Elizabeth when I meant John and Ellen. I always read the messages through, but I am always astonished at the number of errors and missing letters that still go through!!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Jon,
Marriages had to take place in a CofE church and many Catholic couples married twice, but some only once in a CoE church. Catholics were also often buried in the graveyard of the parish churh (usually CofE). But they liked to be baptised as Catholics.

John and Ellen (nee Physwick/Physick) definitely had one child before 1790:

Burial: 7 Jun 1789 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Thomas Sanderson - son of John Sanderson
Age: 0
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 63, Entry 15
Source: LDS Film 1655876

There were other children of a John Sanderson with burials at Ashton chapel, but I don't know whether they were children of this John, as the place of abode is not given, and anyway we don't know when John moved to Culcheth.

The Elizabeth I found married James Unsworth at All Saints, Wigan:

Marriage: 21 Apr 1800 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Unsworth - this Parish
Elizabeth Sanderson - (X), this Parish
Witness: Robert Cross; Mathias Smith
Banns Read: 2 Feb 1800, 2nd: 9 Feb 1800, 3rd: 16 Feb 1800
Married by Banns by: John Prince Curate
Register: Marriages 1766 - 1812, Page 691, Entry 4
Source: LDS Film 1885708

I could only find two children - Ellen and Catherine, who was born in 1803, and so I take this to be Elizabeth's burial:

Burial: 21 Nov 1804 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Unsworth - wife of James Unsworth
Age: 25
Abode: Croft
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 160, Entry 22
Source: LDS Film 1655876

This would place her birth around 1779 if she really was 25 years old when she died. She could well have been the eldest child of John and Ellen.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th December 2016  

Hi Jon,

It seems that Culcheth was basically in Catholic hands until around 1800. I read this on the internet. There is also a publication of some Culcheth baptisms (1791-1825) on the internet and the very first baptism is of Maria Sanderson. This is what it says in Latin:

Die 4 junii 1791 nata et die 16 ejusdem mensis et anni, baptizata fuit Maria Sanderson, filia Joannis et Helenae Sanderson (olim) conjugum. Patrinus uit Joannes Simpson, matrina Anna Race.

Born on the 4th day of June and baptised on the 16th of the same month and year was Mary Sanderson, daughter of John Sanderson and his wife Ellen (nee Physwick): godfather was John Simpson, godmother Ann race.

You will note that Ellen's maiden name is given as "Physwick" in this entry. in the other entries it is "Physick". Thomas was born in 1793 and the others as I said in a previous message. There is also a second John born after the death of the first one. He was born in 1803. This wasn't on familysearch or ancestry. What I did notice in the six baptism entries was that godfather or godmother was often an "Unsworth".I found this interesting. Also in 1801 and 1803 a certain James Unsworth and his wife Elizabeth (nee SANDERSON) had two daughters - Ellen and Catherine. One of Catherine's sponsors was "Radulphus Sanderson". I wondered whether Elizabeth Sanderson and Ralph Sanderson were older children (pre-1791 and post 1779) of John and Elizabeth. The fact that we can't find any baptisms before 1791 doesn't mean to say that there weren't any children. It's really good fortune to have these.

Linda

The information was from Catholic Record Society, Miscellanea, Vol. 8 1913

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th December 2016  

Hi Linda
That's interesting - one or two things I noted led me to believe that the Sandersons in the area generally were Catholic - and explains why so little for them shows up in Lancs OPC (only marriages it would seem).

I wonder if Helena Physick is Ellen Phiswick who married John Sanderson 1779. Phiswick seems to be an alternate spelling of the Fishwick surname. That said it seems those catholic baptism records frmo Culcheth only modify the first names to Latin - John's surname remains Sanderson so maybe she truly was a Physick (could still be Ellen from 1779 if the CoE priest recorded it wrongly in the marriage). The question then becomes why did they wait a good twelve years to have their first child, as I can't seem to find any baptisms to them on Lancs OPC Ancestry or FamilySearch until that first one in 1791.
Wonder if I can find an original copy of the Thomas baptism 1793. I'm very reluctant to go forward with that one so far given his census reports and age at death which all support a 1797-ish birth. I did notice the occasional Sanderson record from a Culcheth RC church even on Lancs OPC, so maybe the family in general were Catholic. What has me focussing on these couples at the moment is the Abram connection listed under John's name - but then there are two Johns. Perhaps the same John married both Ellen Phiswick and Ellen Bayly, but Ellen Bayly died (and this is not shown on Lancs OPC) between 1775 and 1779, so John remarried an Abram girl. Ellen Phiswick/Physick (if the same person, which I'm inclined to think they are) is certainly alive in the 1790s for those children's baptisms.

I'll look for burials of Ellen Sandersons, esp. RC ones.

Thanks

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th December 2016  

Jon,

The James born in 1800 died a few months later. There was possibly a John who was born abt. 1797 since he died in 1803 aged 6.

Burial: 22 Feb 1801 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Sanderson - son of John Sanderson & Ellen
Age: 0
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 136, Entry 12
Source: LDS Film 1655876


Burial: 11 Mar 1803 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson - son of John Sanderson & Ellen
Age: 6
Abode: Culcheth
Register: Burials 1777 - 1806, Page 150, Entry 13
Source: LDS Film 1655876


Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th December 2016  

Jon,

I found four RC baptisms in Culcheth to John Sanderson and Helen.

Maria (1791), mother Helena
Thomas (1793), mother Helena Physick
Peter (1798), mother Helena Physick
Jacobus(James,1800), mother Helena Physick

They are also on ancestry under "All England, Select Births and Baptisms, 1538-1975). I can't copy them or they won't appear. As I said Thomas's age would be a bit out, 4 or 5 years. So I don't know.
But Thomas and Alice did have a John and an Ellen (parents of Thomas?) and a James and a Betty, who I take to be Alice's parents after looking at the records - James Parpoint&Betty Unsworth. So maybe Thomas just made himself younger!!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th December 2016  

Hi John,
I'd been wondering what you are up to! I found a baptism of a Thomas Sanderson, son of John Sanderson and Ellen Physick in Culcheth. Culcheth is 4,7 miles from Abram and probably a little bit further from Ashton in Makerfield, but same vicinity. It was on familysearch. The entry seems to be a Roman Catholic entry. It says "Culcheth-RC" by Winwick and Thomas is described as the son of "Joannis Sanderson" and "Helenae Physick". The thing is that the entry is for 1793, but that is presuming that the transcription is correct. I can't see a copy of the original. I suppose there is a possibilty that it could be 1798, which would correspond better to the dates in the censuses. "Holland" in the All Saints entry refers to what is now known as "Upholland". There used to be "Downholland", and I think "Holland" refers to the whole area. It is, of course, not far from Ashton. If John and Ellen, or one of them, were Catholics, then it may explain why there are no births to be found, but it makes it difficult for you as not many Catholic records are online.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th December 2016  

Me again following up...
as soon as I finished my last post I thought that perhaps I should run a LancsOPC search for Sandersons that got married in Lancashire (no year filter, just wanted everything).
Most Sandersons getting married in Winwick Parish in the 20 years leading up to Thomas' approx birth date are women; however, I have just found one here:

Marriage: 15 Jun 1779 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
John Sanderson - Abram
Ellen Phiswick - (X), Holland
Witness: Robt. Atherton; Gerd. Bancks
Married by Lycence by: R. Knowles
Source: LDS Film 1885689

Abram matches perfectly (Thomas' birth place on most censuses). Not sure if Holland refers to the country or some place in Lancashire (if it's a Parish I would have thought that Parish would be written after it just as in practically all records). Thomas and Alice's first son was named John (the baptisms of their children are not recorded on Lancs OPC - similar to Thomas himself - and perhaps to his siblings if I could find them via his parents).. I used Censuses and BMDs to come up with the list of Thomas and Alice's children.

One more update found as I type: a John Sanderson from Abram m. an Ellen Baly of Abram in Wigan Parish 1775 - so I guess I've got to figure out which are Thomas' parents - assuming one of them are!

Jon

Posted by JBrown86 on 19th December 2016  

Hi Linda
Thanks for your help with the Blackrod Turners. It looks like maybe a dead end at this point with a lot of guesswork maybe needed to take the next step in determining which of several Richard Turners baptised to different parents in Blackrod and/or Lostock might be the right one.

I have a question closer to Wigan which I guess is where questions on this site should probably be (I think my family lines before were more Manchester-way):
my ancestor Thomas Sanderson married an Alice Pairpoint in 1829. I have some ideas for her parentage, am particularly sure of the first generation, and have come across a few things to help me.. but as for Thomas - can't seem to locate him anywhere! His birth range (I have found them on all censuses that they exist on - he dies in 1874) seems to be from 1796-1800 and Abram (sometimes Ashton) is given on censuses as his birth year. Lancs OPC, Ancestry, FamilySearch, and Google (!) all seem to give me nothing on him or who his parents might be. I can't find even an Ancestry family tree that shows him in it. Where might I turn next? I find it odd that even Google gives nothing when I run a few specific searches, as usually there's at least an old message board posting (from about 2001) of someone that was once upon a time researching the same person. But not this time.

Thanks and hope that Christmas is fine for you; congrats on the new grandchild

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th December 2016  

Hi Silvi,
I found the baptism of the Selina Holland, who was born and died in Astbury, Congleton in 1850. There was also no father's name and her mother's name was Sophia. Sophia seems to have later married someone called George Wynne, but her father's name was William Holland (!). There is also a Selina Wynne in 1851, born in Dukinfield in 1845 to a Samuel Wynne. This is not your Selina who has been taken in, as there is a birth record, but I wonder whether the families were somehow connected. It's given me something to muse about tonight.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 15th December 2016  

John was born before the marriage not before the birth, of course!! Too late at night!

Posted by silvi wright on 15th December 2016  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Thank you
Linda I will buy that birth in Cheshire as you have found for me.I had found an Andrew Docherty living in Burnley in 1861 in the home of an elderly couples home of John and Peggy Mullen from Ireland too. I have never had so much trouble looking up my family as this line.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th December 2016  

Hi Silvi,

I have found Thomas's birth and Selina's also, I think.
We know that Selina and Andrew married in 1865 in Wigan and that John was born shortly beore the birth and christened after the marriage.We also now know that another son called Andrew was born and died in Wigan in 1870. We know that Thomas's birth was abt. 1868 and supposedly in Wigan from the 1881 census. This, however, is not true. I looked at every Thomas born in Wigan between 1867 and 1869. So why did they say he was born there? Because they were living there at the time. I presumed that Selina may have gone home to her mother to have him. In 1901 and 1911 Thomas says he was born in Dukinfield, near Ashton under Lyne. I found the birth of THOMAS DOHERTY,maiden name of mother HOLLAND, in 1867 in the Cheshire birth indexes, subdistrict Dukinfield. Registers are at Tameside and the reference is DUK/63/64.

So if Selina went home, perhaps her birth could be found in the same area. In the Cheshire birth indexes for the years 1846-1850, two Selina Hollands were born. One was born in the subdistrict of Congleton, but she died in 1850, and the other was born in Ashton town. The maiden name of the mother was HOLLAND and the register of this birth is at Tameside under the reference number AST/16/71. I'm sorry I couldn't prevent you from buying that other certificate. Your Selina's father may well have been William, but whether he was ever married to Selina's mother is a different matter.

You will have to buy the certificate to find out the mother's name as the baptism registers for Ashton under Lyne don't include those yeras. Please let me know how you go on!

Linda

P.S. There's still the question of where Selina was in the censuses 1851/61/71!!

Posted by LEP1950 on 12th December 2016  

Silvi,

I think Patrick's birth is probably one of the following:

Patrick Dougherty
Jul-Aug-Sept 1874
South Shields, Durham
vol 10a, p. 831

(Naional birth indexes)

or

Patrick Dockerdy (sic!)
Oct-Nov-Dec 1874
Stockton, Durham
Vol 10a, p. 173

(National birth indexes)

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 12th December 2016  

Silvi,

I came across an old message on the internet from someone looking for Andrew and Selina Dockerty. This person had a marriage certificate and said that although the marriage certificate said that the groom's father's name was Andrew and that he was deceased, some people on ancestry have his parents as William Dockerty and Rebecca Ferrie in Scotland. Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate? What names are on there for the fathers? Are addresses noted? And what are the names of the witnesses? Sometimes these names can help.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 11th December 2016  

Hello Sylvi,

It looks like Andrew and Selina Dockerty were still in Wigan in September 1870 and were living at 11 Burns Yard, Scholes. They had had a son called ANDREW whose funeral took place at All Saints Wigan on September 18th 1870. He was 4 weeks old:

Burial: 18 Sep 1870 All Saints, Wigan, Lancs.
Andrew Doherty -
Age: 4 weeks
Abode: Scholes (St. Catherines)
Buried by: H. C. Bull V. of S. James' for the Rector
Register: Burials 1867 - 1872, Page 96, Entry 767
Source: LDS Film 1885705

He was interred at Wigan Cemetery in Ince and that is where I got the address from. In the birth indexes for Lancashire the name was written or transcribed as DROGHEDA (!):

Drogheda, Andrew
Mother's maiden name: Holland
Sub-district: Hindley
Reference: HNDL/42/349

I cannot find a birth of Thomas around 1868 yet, who was in the 1881 census, but not in 1871 if the family were going by the name of McCue. I wonder whether he was a relative taken in by Andrew and Selina. It happened a lot and the children were often referred to as "son" or "daughter.

Linda

PS It looks like the name was written down as Drogheda originally as the Civil Registration Index for England and Wales also give this version. Irish accents were obviously dificult to understand!!

Ince is in the sub-district of Hindley.