Wigan Family & Local History Society

Messagebook

Sign the messagebook with your comments, help required, suggestions etc...

There are currently 2,799 entries in 140 pages.

Posted by LEP1950 on 11th January 2017  

Silvi,

Haven't had time to look further yet, but just wanted to know whether you have seen this record of your ancestor Martha:

Baptism: 15 Apr 1893 Holy Trinity, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Martha Handley - Daughter of William Bellamy & Elizabeth
Born: 22 May 1850
Abode: 62 Lever Street
Notes: Adult Martha (Handley) Received. Baptized at Little Dean, Gloucestershire by
Congregationist Minister
Baptised by: T.Taylor-Evans
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1897, Page 106, Entry 848
Source: LDS Film 1966124


So, Martha was originally a Congegationist and was taken into the Church of England a few years after her marriage to Thomas.

For workhouse records, see:

Bolton Library and Museum Services. They have quite a few records, but I think you would have to go to Bolton to look at them on microfiche.

There are some inmates registers on the workhouse website on the internet, but they only go up to 1891.

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 8th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Thanks Linda,
I know nothing about Annie at all, she turned up with my ancester Martha Bellamy and her husband who didn't have children together as far as I can tell. Martha had a son and daughter in longhope workhouse before she met Thomas. She left her home town of Elton to be in service close to her two children who were looked after by child nurses.She must have met him in Lancashire and married late in life.
I know there are no records of adoptions so I have tried to look for a reason to connect Annie with Martha and Thomas without success.
Do you know of any records of workhouses in Bolton close to where they lives.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 8th January 2017  

Silvi,

I don't know whether I was too quick, but I have since discovered that four Annie Jacksons were born in Worsley in 1891. The one christened in Boothstown is the only christening I could find. This Annie was christened on the same day as her older siblings Elizabeth Ellen and John William. Strange that there are no baptisms of the other three Annie Jacksons in Worsley, but I discovered deaths of two infant Annie Jacksons in 1891 and 1892 in the Salford area.But I don't suppose we can be absolutely sure before we have acccounted for all the other three.

Just looked at the 1901 census again. An Annie Jackson born in Swinton, Worsley district in 1891, is with her parents and so can't be the Annie you are looking for.

I think Annie, d. of Alfred and Kate is the one. Funny, I can find no trace of Alfred, Kate or the older siblings after this. I found a couple of interestingdeath records, but crosschecking showed they were not the correct people.
Stil thinking.

Posted by LEP1950 on 8th January 2017  

Silvi,

Well, judging by the fact that Annie's place of birth is given as Worsley in 1901 and Boothstown in 1911, I'd say this was Annie's baptism:

Baptism: 8 Jan 1892 Ellenbrook Chapel, Worsley, Lancs.
Annie Jackson - [Child] of Alfred Jackson & Kate
Abode: Boothstown
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: Thomas H. Davies
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1902, Page 250, Entry 2093
Source: Manchester Central Library

I can't yet work out if there was any kind of relationship between the parents and Thomas and Martha (Bellamy? - you didn't tell me the name of your ancestor), but perhaps the name Kate says something to you.
In 1891, shortly before Annie's baptism, Alfred and Kate are in the census for Boothstown with two other children: Elizabeth E. aged 11 and John W, aged 5. They came from Bedford, Leigh. Alfred was 30 and Kate 31.
1n 1881 Catherine and Alfred are with (presumably) his parents Richard and Alice Jackson with little Elizabeth Ellen in Bedford, Leigh. It just says "lodgers".

I think Alfred Jackson married Catherine Aldred in Leigh in 1879.

Do the names ALDRED and JACKSON say anything to you? And what was the name of your ancestor - BELLAMY?

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 8th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Happy New Year Linda,
I have put Selina on one side for the time being as I have another link I thought you could help me with. My great great grandmother on my Dad's mothers side has two children in the workhouse although she was born to a farmer with lots of land. She married eventually in Lancashire and was living in a private house in Bolton with her husband, Thomas Hanley on the 1901 and the 1911 census.
Her two children have by then grown up and left but she has a 9 year old girl called Annie living with her as her daughter on the 1901 census then on the 1911 she is called Annie Jackson Adopted child.Is there any way of finding out who this is please.
Sorry to bother you again but this one has been left for quite some time with no leads
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 6th January 2017  

For Shelagh,

This is John's baptism. As I said, the "M" may be a wrong transcription of the letter depicted. I haven't seen the original on microfiche:

Baptism: 3 Nov 1809 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
John Walmesley - Son of Charles Walmesley & M
Born: 2 Nov 1809
God Parents: Wilm. Walmsley
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 83
Source: Original register at LRO

And this John, according to Burke, died in 1877.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 3rd January 2017  

Shelagh,

In the second volume of Burke's "A genealogical and heraldic history of Great Britain and Ireland..", which was published in 1879, it states in the section on the Walmesleys of Westwood House, Ince, that John, b. 1809, died in 1877 (!). So I think that that provides a good link to the John in Devon. Unfortunately there is no information about who he married. This is in contrast to information about his siblings. I wonder whether there was a bit of a scandal about his marriage to Philippa. After all, she was only 14 or 15 compared to his 51 years of age when they married.

Apparently, Charles and Elizabeth also had a son called Richard, b. 28th September 1806, who died young.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 2nd January 2017  

Shelagh,

I've been looking around. Apparently Charles Walmesley married Elizabeth Jeffreys on November 17th, 1804. In a book entitled "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland enjoying Territorial Possessions....." (you can find bits on the internet by putting in that), the children I found baptised at St John's, Wigan are listed plus an eldest son Charles, b. 1805.He died in 1830 and was buried at All Saints. The notes state that he was "Roman" and that he was "killed". John is also listed in 1809. I don't know what the "M" in the transcription from St John's means. Perhaps the letter has been falsely transcribed. Also listed are two children born after the baptisms for St John's end on Lan OPC. So Charles and Elizabeth did have a son called John, and in 1841 he is with his widowed mother Elizabeth at Westwood House, although his age is a little out, even accounting for the rounding down in this census. Ancestry.co.uk has a document "UK, Articles of Clerkship 1756-1874", in which John is described as the son of Charles Walmesley of Westwood House. He is training to be an attorney. Filing date is Nov 21st 1832. In 1851 John is listed as a "gentleman" living at 17 Lord Street, Wigan. In 1861, he could not be immediately found. I later found him as John Warmsley, living in Halwell, Devon. He is listed as "ind(ependent)", 50 years of age and born in Lancashire. With him is a servant called William Gaskell. In 1871 there is a 60 year old John living with his young wife Phillipa (Ann Reeves Auger) and young child in Devon. I take this to be "your" John. He apparently married Philippa in Totnes in November 1861. Unfortunately I've only found the index online and no scans of the registration. Have you not applied for a copy of the marriage certificate to see whether this John's father's name was Charles? John died in 1877.
So a lot points to a link between the above John and Westwood House, but there are some trees on ancestry that have John of Westwood House dying in 1847 - probably copied from each other. No further sources are given. I can't so far find any evidence that John died in the Wigan area in 1847.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 2nd January 2017  

Shelagh,

What years are we talking about? When did your ancestor die and how old was he? I read that the Walmsleys left Westwood Hall in the 1890s. The earlier Walmsleys were Roman Catholics. A Charles and an Elizabeth had seven children baptised at St John's RC church, Wigan between 1811 and 1821. Is this too early?

In 1808 there was this baptism, interesting since you mention the name "Jeffreys":

Baptism: 13 Jul 1808 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
William Gerard Walmesley (alias Jefferson) - Son of Charles Walmesley (alias Jefferson)
Born: 12 Jul 1808
God Parents: Mr William Gerard Walmesley
Notes: [Mother's name not recorded]
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 62
Source: Original register at LRO

What is the story behind this? An adoption or an illegitimate child?

So, and then there was the baptism of a John Walmesley on Nov 3 1809 to Charles Walmesley and M. Just M!! The godfather was William Walmesley. There only seems to have been one Charles having children at this time. So did Charles marry twice? Or was John an illegitimate son?

I don't know, of course, whether these are the people you mean. It seems a bit too early for two-times great grandfather, but perhaps they all married late? Can you provide some dates if the above information is not what you are looking for?

Linda

Posted by shelagh scholtens on 1st January 2017  srscholtens@gmail.com 

My 2nd great grandfather was John Walmesley Esq. and died in Devon. As far as we know He was the the son of Charles Walmesley of Westwood House, and Elizabeth Jeffreys. We have searched for a birth and baptism but can not find any. The only link I have is that John's estate was handled by the same solicitors (Part, Woodcock and Co, The Arcade, King Street, Wigan) as his brothers,William Gerard Walmesley of Westwood House.Can anyone shed some light on how I can prove John is part of this family.Also would there be any records from the lawfirm.
Thanks Shelgh

Posted by geraldine long on 29th December 2016  

hello Carol
The mother of William and Martha Heaton was Jane Robinson.

Posted by carol on 29th December 2016  carol.dougherty@btinternet.com 

Can anyone help me with a specific query please - twins William and Martha Heaton born in Dec 1837 to father William Heaton - who was the mother?

Posted by LEP1950 on 27th December 2016  

Silvi,
Thanks for letting me know. I'll browse around tonight to see whether I can find anything. For some reason I had thought her mother may have been Hannah. Will look through my scribbled notes to find out why.

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 26th December 2016  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Merry Christmas Linda,
I ordered the birth cert of Selina in Cheshire and it states that her mother was Ann who gave birth to her in Crickets lane Ashton under Lyne.
I looked on the history of Ashton in 1846 when she was born on the 1st of June and there was a workhouse in the area which had been an infirmary so I thought maybe she was born there.I have trawled the marriage records for 1846/7 and there are none married to a William in Lancashire. Will try Cheshire at later dates too.
Silvi

Posted by JBrown86 on 25th December 2016  

Yep, it's that family time of year when we all eat a little too much! Hope that your Christmas period goes smoothly! Will contact at a later point perhaps after the NY

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd December 2016  

Hi Jon,
I don't think the Pairpoints were Catholics, but Betty Unsworth definitely was. It is stated in her burial record. You see this a lot. People were buried in the Protestant church graveyard, but the funeral did not take place in the church.

The Unsworths and the Boardmanns seem to have been quite prominent Catholic families in Ashton. They were also "recusants" (very brave!). In 1717, Edward Unsworth and John Boardman registered their estates as "papists". This was at a time when it was extremely dangerous to be a Catholic priest and when reprisals, such as confiscation of lands and fines, took place against Catholics in general. It was also a time when it was extremely dangerous to keep records. That's why it's very difficult to find Catholic records from Elizabethan times up to 1791 (Catholic Relief Act). I read that most records from this time are "hostile" records, i.e. those made by the state or its agents - the Anglican clergy.

It says explicitly in one of the Pairpoint/Unsworth baptisms that Betty was the daughter of John Unsworth and Peggy. The only marriage that seems to fit is the one of John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman in 1769. The Unwsorth and Boardman families, as I said, were seemingly very strict Catholics in this period. I don't suppose it went down very well that Betty Unsworth married James Pierpoint.

I have to think a bit more about James Pierpoint's likely ancestry. I have visitors over Christmas and don't know whether I'll get to do much research. I haven't found the document you sent anywhere on the internet yet either.

Merry Christmas!

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 23rd December 2016  

Thanks Linda for that info. For what it may help, I ran an OPC search for Pierpoint with no other filters. Searching for "RC," on the page bring up not a single find - not even in any of the marriage records. So the Pierpoints were either simply not Catholic or even their marriages were not done in CoE chapels.

The one solitary result suggesting Catholicism amongst the thousand on that Pierpoint search was Elizabeth Pierpoint nee Unsworth my relative; her burial record 1834 references her having no ceremony for being a "papist". James and Elizabeth's children were all baptised CoE so maybe Catholicism only ran in the Unsworth side of that family.

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd December 2016  

Jon,
I haven't had time to look at the Unsworths yet, but I did have Betty as the mother of Alice Pierpoint. The Sanderson baptisms had the following godparents:

Maria (1791) - Joannes Simpson, Anna Race
Thomas (1793) - Thomas Caldwell, Maria Rigby
Joannes (1796)- Radulphus Caldwell, Sarah BOARDMAN
Petrus (1798)- Joannes BOARDMAN, Martha UNSWORTH
Jacobus (1800) Jacobus UNSWORTH, Anna Caldwell
Joannes (1803) Thomas UNSWORTH, Margarita Ratcliff

Then there were the two children of Elizabeth (nee Sanderson) and James UNSWORTH:

Helena (1801)- Thomas Caldwell, Anna Gibbins
Catherine (1803) - Radulphus SANDERSON, Maria UNSWORTH.


I've written the names as they appeared in the original records.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 22nd December 2016  

I presently have Elizabeth Pierpoint nee Unsworth as dying in 1834 aged 64 (Ashton). Not 100% sure it's correct. There's another James and Elizabeth Pierpoint from Lodge Lane Ashton having children around that time, but 64 would have been too old to have children, and at least one child is born and bap 1835, so this is an older Elizabeth (likely mine) born c.1770. That fits well with the John Unsworth/Margaret Boardman marriage from 1769, though there's no baptism recorded and the first reason coming to mind is that these families may have been Catholic like the Sandersons that later marry into the family. Makes it hard to pair up births marriages and deaths when you have to account for some not even being in the records due to denomination.
Eliz. d. 1834 is listed as wife of James Pierpoint. The only reasonable James Pierpoint death to match (considering Parish/Chapel) is 1822 aged 46 - this perfectly matches a 1776 baptism in Winwick (father John Pierpoint). However, this would mean Eliz should have been listed as widow not wife in her burial record.
The whole situation is made harder considering that we don't even know the age difference between Eliz and James. If Eliz was not even his first marriage, and he were something like 20 years older than her, then there are different baptisms that could have been James Pierpoint, all of which makes it harder to use OPC or BMD to determine exactly which death is his (being unable to use age at death). The same applies re. John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman and finding their death dates despite no indication as to the difference between their ages. That said I think Margaret Unsworth nee Boardman dies in 1806. Just thinking out loud as I research so you know where I'm coming from :)

Jon

Posted by JBrown86 on 21st December 2016  

Hi Linda,

It seems these families - Sanderson, Boardman, Unsworth, and to a lesser extent Pierpoints are all closely mixed. Sandersons and Unsworths in particular seem to be Catholic.
Do you mind providing the godparents names for each of those baptisms? None of the records I've found seem to give them.

Perhaps we have hit a dead end re. Thomas at the moment, with an idea that he may have come from John Sanderson and Ellen Physwick (if his reported age at censuses was simply a little out). Would that be correct?

Also, what do you think of my conclusions about the parentage and grand-parentage of Alice Pairpoint, Thomas Sanderson's wife?

I presently have her as born 1801 to James Pairpoint/Elizabeth Unsworth. Nothing solid on the Pairpoint line yet, but I think her Unsworth grandparents were John Unsworth and Margaret Boardman based on information in the last two or three baptisms of James and Elizabeth's children. A document I found and have sent to your email would suggest that the parents to register their marriage would suggest that the parents were John Unsworth and John Boardman, with an Abram connection in there for further support. This leads to to believe that the parents of John Unsworth (Elizabeth's father) were John Unsworth and Sarah Edwardson. I haven't progressed past there at this point. The document does not explicitly state that the relationship of the two Johns to the married parties was that of parent. Eager to see what you think :)

Thanks
Jon