Wigan Family & Local History Society

Messagebook

Sign the messagebook with your comments, help required, suggestions etc...

There are currently 2,809 entries in 141 pages.

Posted by David Carver on 19th January 2017  davidcarver49@gmail.com 

I would be interested to hear from any 'Carver'connected with my late father - James Carver who was born in Bickershaw on 29 February 1916.

Posted by LEP19950 on 17th January 2017  

Silvi,

I have had a few tips from someone on the other site that Kate Jackson (calling herself Rhodes and living with s.o. called James Rhodes) was boarding with Annie Jackson in Leigh in 1901. An Annie Jackson married a Thomas Wilde in 1910 and is living with her in-laws in the 1911 census, giving her place of birth as Boothstown. Her first two children were called ALFRED and GEORGE (Thomas's father's name was George). It looks like this Annie is not the one with the Hanleys. Do not know what happened to Alfred, but it looks like it's back to Annie, daughter of gamekeeper Thomas and Martha.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th January 2017  

Silvi,
I think I've found Kate in 1911. I tried to follow up John William. It was a bit complicated as his wife was in the birth registers as Bridget Gleeson, in the 1911 census as Bridget, but married as Delia Gleeson, which confused me at first. Anyway, they had four daughters, three of whom died as infants - Catherine (John W's mother), Mary (Bridget's mother), Annie (John W.'s sister) and Elizabeth Ellen (the other sister). The names indicate (as well as the age and place of birth) that it's the correct John William. I've made it a habit always to look at the neighbours as families tended to live close to each other. Who is living right next to John William? A CATHERINE JACKSON, born in Leigh and of exactly the right age!!! She has a boarder called Patrick Grogan (?) and - wait for this - an adopted toddler son called John Corless, aged 3. From the birth registers, it looks like the mother's maiden name was Grogan.

So, Elizabeth Ellen and John William are looking after themselves in 1901 - no Annie. Mother Catherine is living next door to John William in 1911 - no Annie.

I thought Alfred may have died, but Catherine says she is married and has been for over 30 years. She has had eight children, but only three have survived. Did Alfred leave her, forcing her to fend for the three children alone and to give one up? I found a couple of Kate Jacksons working as servants, but not in the vicinity.

I'm leaving Thomas and Martha for the moment to try to get to th bottom of this. We only need Alfred and Annie!! And perhaps Annie is with the Hanleys.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th January 2017  

Silvi,

We are currently investigating two Annie Jacksons as candidates for the adopted daughter of the Hanleys. I feel as if I've made a little progress with Annie, the daughter of Alfred and Kate. Her elder sister married Thomas Kelly in 1899, and in 1901 brother John William is with her and her husband in Pennington, West Leigh. No Annie with them, and no parents. So, obviously Annie was separated from her siblings at the time of the 1901 census.

Am making progress finding out about the family of the other candidate, but don't know where that Annie is in 1901 yet. The only link to the Hanleys is that father Thomas was approximately the same age as Thomas Hanley and also born in Cheshire. Not much to go on!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 15th January 2017  

Silvi,
I meant Thomas and Martha Jackson. They seem to be elusive in all the censuses. Saw Annie's baptism in 1892, sister Clara in 1887 and brother Thomas in 1890, all with father Thomas, a gamekeeper. But haven't found them yet in 1891 or 1901. I thought that if we could find them with Annie in 1901, then we could rule them out. If not, then this Annie is just as likely as the other one, b. to Alfred and Kate.

What is strange is that I found two earlier baptisms in 1874 and 1875:

Baptism: 16 Jan 1874 St Mark, Worsley, Lancs.
Elizabeth Jackson - [Child] of Thomas Jackson & Margaret
Abode: Worsley
Occupation: Gamekeeper
Baptised by: Mulgrave
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1884, Page 116, Entry 923
Source: Manchester Central Library

Margaret? Did Thomas marry twice? Can't find any evidence for this. Perhaps the original says Mar. - who knows?

Twelve months later Alice was born:

Baptism: 5 Dec 1875 St Mark, Worsley, Lancashire, England
Alice Jackson - [Child] of Thomas Jackson & Martha
Abode: Worsley
Occupation: Gamekeeper
Baptised by: Mulgrave
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1884, Page 131, Entry 1045
Source: Manchester Central Library

Then there were no more children until 1887. It seems to me that they must have been elsewhere during this time. I'm looking for where they might have formed a connection to the Hanleys.

Daughter Elizabeth is also in Boothstown in 1892, when she marries somone called TIPTON (Does this say anything to you?). She's only 18, but has made herself 21, perhaps in order not to need permission.

Marriage: 3 Aug 1892 St Mark, Worsley, Lancs.
John Tipton - 23, Collier, Bachelor, Boothstown
Elizabeth Jackson - 21, Servant, Spinster, Boothstown
Groom's Father: Richard Tipton, Farm Labourer
Bride's Father: Thomas Jackson, Gamekeeper
Witness: Samuel Markland; Alice Ann Smith
Married by Banns by: A.W. McLaren, Curate
Register: Marriages 1885 - 1903, Page 87, Entry 174
Source: Manchester Central Library


AN HOUR LATER:
Through Elizabeth, in 1901 I discovered a Jesse Jackson, b. 1879/80 and in 1911 a Herbert Jackson, b. 1893 and christened in Astley (Thomas and Martha parents). Through Jesse, I found the family in 1891, parents Thomas, a gamekeeper, and mother "MAR" (so abbreviated here). I need to do some more work to see what happened to Thomas and Martha.

Till later,
Linda

Posted by sylvia wright on 15th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
Yes I got Martha and Thomas with Annie Hanley in Bolton .
She has their name. I Know they are the correct people but who is she?
I am looking into Thomas' siblings but not found any connection yet.
Will keep looking.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 15th January 2017  

Hi Silvi,

I have now seen that baptism in Astley, and yes, you have to consider that as a further possibility. I have followed Alfred and Kate back, but as I said, I can't follow them forward, which made me think they might have disappeared and left Annie behind. So, can we find Thomas, Martha and children in the 1901 census? I can't at first glance. Will look more intensively later.If we can't find them either, then we're no wiser.
Thomas and Martha Hanley don't seem to have had any biological children, and they say so themselves in the 1911 census.

Happy hunting!

Linda

Posted by sylvia wright on 14th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
just done some looking up and found the baptism record for the three children but not the family on the census,yet! Guess what else I found. Another baptism for an Annie Jackson in Astley with Marth and Thomas as her parents in June 1892. Thomas is a Gamekeeper and they live in Boothtown.
I will follow that one up soon.
Thanks for all your help
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th January 2017  

Hi Silvi,

I knew that it wasn't Martha you were interested in. The info about the adult baptism was just "by the way" in case you hadn't seen it. I've done a lot of crosschecking myself and also haven't discovered any obvious blood relationship between Martha and Thomas and Annie Jackson. Usually when children are taken in and described as "daughter" or "son", they are relatives of some kind. If the details about Annie's place of birth in 1901 and 1911 are correct, then I think she is the youngest child of Alfred and Kate Jackson. They were in Boothstown in the 1891 census and were obviously still alive at the beginning of 1892 when all three children were christened together. Interesting is that they don't turn up in a census after this, that no more children were christened after 1892 (Strange since Kate was 31/32 at the time and Alfred 30/31) and I can find no marriage of an Elizabeth E or John W that would seem to fit. Nor can I find any deaths of Alfred or Kate. Alfred was a collier and I have looked at the mining accidents for the period, but have found nothing there.
I'm trying to investigate the possibility that they emigrated leaving Annie behind sometime after 1892, perhaps intending to return for her, but ths is just a vague theory. I have looked at a couple of US censuses that are free online and didn't find anything interesting.
As said, the family was in Worsley in 1892, so how did Annie come to be with the Hanleys in Bolton?? Did the Jacksons move to Bolton and possibly live near the Hanleys? Or was Annie in the workhouse? Ten years is a long time between censuses and there is rarely information to be found to see what was going on in this period. "Adoptions" seem to have ben pretty informal in those days.

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 13th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
Yes I have all the history of Martha and her two children were born in Longhope Worhouse near the farm her father owned in Elton.
It was Annie , who I don't think is my blood relative I was interested in.
I have found all the marriages of her sisters and none of them married a Jackson. I will start on Thomas Hanley's siblings next but she , Annie maybe a workhouse inmate that my great great grandma looked after in her later years but not related to her or her husband.If you can find anything please let me know and If i turn anything up I will let you know.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 11th January 2017  

Silvi,

Haven't had time to look further yet, but just wanted to know whether you have seen this record of your ancestor Martha:

Baptism: 15 Apr 1893 Holy Trinity, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Martha Handley - Daughter of William Bellamy & Elizabeth
Born: 22 May 1850
Abode: 62 Lever Street
Notes: Adult Martha (Handley) Received. Baptized at Little Dean, Gloucestershire by
Congregationist Minister
Baptised by: T.Taylor-Evans
Register: Baptisms 1890 - 1897, Page 106, Entry 848
Source: LDS Film 1966124


So, Martha was originally a Congegationist and was taken into the Church of England a few years after her marriage to Thomas.

For workhouse records, see:

Bolton Library and Museum Services. They have quite a few records, but I think you would have to go to Bolton to look at them on microfiche.

There are some inmates registers on the workhouse website on the internet, but they only go up to 1891.

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 8th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Thanks Linda,
I know nothing about Annie at all, she turned up with my ancester Martha Bellamy and her husband who didn't have children together as far as I can tell. Martha had a son and daughter in longhope workhouse before she met Thomas. She left her home town of Elton to be in service close to her two children who were looked after by child nurses.She must have met him in Lancashire and married late in life.
I know there are no records of adoptions so I have tried to look for a reason to connect Annie with Martha and Thomas without success.
Do you know of any records of workhouses in Bolton close to where they lives.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 8th January 2017  

Silvi,

I don't know whether I was too quick, but I have since discovered that four Annie Jacksons were born in Worsley in 1891. The one christened in Boothstown is the only christening I could find. This Annie was christened on the same day as her older siblings Elizabeth Ellen and John William. Strange that there are no baptisms of the other three Annie Jacksons in Worsley, but I discovered deaths of two infant Annie Jacksons in 1891 and 1892 in the Salford area.But I don't suppose we can be absolutely sure before we have acccounted for all the other three.

Just looked at the 1901 census again. An Annie Jackson born in Swinton, Worsley district in 1891, is with her parents and so can't be the Annie you are looking for.

I think Annie, d. of Alfred and Kate is the one. Funny, I can find no trace of Alfred, Kate or the older siblings after this. I found a couple of interestingdeath records, but crosschecking showed they were not the correct people.
Stil thinking.

Posted by LEP1950 on 8th January 2017  

Silvi,

Well, judging by the fact that Annie's place of birth is given as Worsley in 1901 and Boothstown in 1911, I'd say this was Annie's baptism:

Baptism: 8 Jan 1892 Ellenbrook Chapel, Worsley, Lancs.
Annie Jackson - [Child] of Alfred Jackson & Kate
Abode: Boothstown
Occupation: Collier
Baptised by: Thomas H. Davies
Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1902, Page 250, Entry 2093
Source: Manchester Central Library

I can't yet work out if there was any kind of relationship between the parents and Thomas and Martha (Bellamy? - you didn't tell me the name of your ancestor), but perhaps the name Kate says something to you.
In 1891, shortly before Annie's baptism, Alfred and Kate are in the census for Boothstown with two other children: Elizabeth E. aged 11 and John W, aged 5. They came from Bedford, Leigh. Alfred was 30 and Kate 31.
1n 1881 Catherine and Alfred are with (presumably) his parents Richard and Alice Jackson with little Elizabeth Ellen in Bedford, Leigh. It just says "lodgers".

I think Alfred Jackson married Catherine Aldred in Leigh in 1879.

Do the names ALDRED and JACKSON say anything to you? And what was the name of your ancestor - BELLAMY?

Linda

Posted by silvi wright on 8th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Happy New Year Linda,
I have put Selina on one side for the time being as I have another link I thought you could help me with. My great great grandmother on my Dad's mothers side has two children in the workhouse although she was born to a farmer with lots of land. She married eventually in Lancashire and was living in a private house in Bolton with her husband, Thomas Hanley on the 1901 and the 1911 census.
Her two children have by then grown up and left but she has a 9 year old girl called Annie living with her as her daughter on the 1901 census then on the 1911 she is called Annie Jackson Adopted child.Is there any way of finding out who this is please.
Sorry to bother you again but this one has been left for quite some time with no leads
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 6th January 2017  

For Shelagh,

This is John's baptism. As I said, the "M" may be a wrong transcription of the letter depicted. I haven't seen the original on microfiche:

Baptism: 3 Nov 1809 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
John Walmesley - Son of Charles Walmesley & M
Born: 2 Nov 1809
God Parents: Wilm. Walmsley
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 83
Source: Original register at LRO

And this John, according to Burke, died in 1877.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 3rd January 2017  

Shelagh,

In the second volume of Burke's "A genealogical and heraldic history of Great Britain and Ireland..", which was published in 1879, it states in the section on the Walmesleys of Westwood House, Ince, that John, b. 1809, died in 1877 (!). So I think that that provides a good link to the John in Devon. Unfortunately there is no information about who he married. This is in contrast to information about his siblings. I wonder whether there was a bit of a scandal about his marriage to Philippa. After all, she was only 14 or 15 compared to his 51 years of age when they married.

Apparently, Charles and Elizabeth also had a son called Richard, b. 28th September 1806, who died young.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 2nd January 2017  

Shelagh,

I've been looking around. Apparently Charles Walmesley married Elizabeth Jeffreys on November 17th, 1804. In a book entitled "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland enjoying Territorial Possessions....." (you can find bits on the internet by putting in that), the children I found baptised at St John's, Wigan are listed plus an eldest son Charles, b. 1805.He died in 1830 and was buried at All Saints. The notes state that he was "Roman" and that he was "killed". John is also listed in 1809. I don't know what the "M" in the transcription from St John's means. Perhaps the letter has been falsely transcribed. Also listed are two children born after the baptisms for St John's end on Lan OPC. So Charles and Elizabeth did have a son called John, and in 1841 he is with his widowed mother Elizabeth at Westwood House, although his age is a little out, even accounting for the rounding down in this census. Ancestry.co.uk has a document "UK, Articles of Clerkship 1756-1874", in which John is described as the son of Charles Walmesley of Westwood House. He is training to be an attorney. Filing date is Nov 21st 1832. In 1851 John is listed as a "gentleman" living at 17 Lord Street, Wigan. In 1861, he could not be immediately found. I later found him as John Warmsley, living in Halwell, Devon. He is listed as "ind(ependent)", 50 years of age and born in Lancashire. With him is a servant called William Gaskell. In 1871 there is a 60 year old John living with his young wife Phillipa (Ann Reeves Auger) and young child in Devon. I take this to be "your" John. He apparently married Philippa in Totnes in November 1861. Unfortunately I've only found the index online and no scans of the registration. Have you not applied for a copy of the marriage certificate to see whether this John's father's name was Charles? John died in 1877.
So a lot points to a link between the above John and Westwood House, but there are some trees on ancestry that have John of Westwood House dying in 1847 - probably copied from each other. No further sources are given. I can't so far find any evidence that John died in the Wigan area in 1847.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 2nd January 2017  

Shelagh,

What years are we talking about? When did your ancestor die and how old was he? I read that the Walmsleys left Westwood Hall in the 1890s. The earlier Walmsleys were Roman Catholics. A Charles and an Elizabeth had seven children baptised at St John's RC church, Wigan between 1811 and 1821. Is this too early?

In 1808 there was this baptism, interesting since you mention the name "Jeffreys":

Baptism: 13 Jul 1808 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
William Gerard Walmesley (alias Jefferson) - Son of Charles Walmesley (alias Jefferson)
Born: 12 Jul 1808
God Parents: Mr William Gerard Walmesley
Notes: [Mother's name not recorded]
Register: Baptisms 1805 - 1822, Page 62
Source: Original register at LRO

What is the story behind this? An adoption or an illegitimate child?

So, and then there was the baptism of a John Walmesley on Nov 3 1809 to Charles Walmesley and M. Just M!! The godfather was William Walmesley. There only seems to have been one Charles having children at this time. So did Charles marry twice? Or was John an illegitimate son?

I don't know, of course, whether these are the people you mean. It seems a bit too early for two-times great grandfather, but perhaps they all married late? Can you provide some dates if the above information is not what you are looking for?

Linda

Posted by shelagh scholtens on 1st January 2017  srscholtens@gmail.com 

My 2nd great grandfather was John Walmesley Esq. and died in Devon. As far as we know He was the the son of Charles Walmesley of Westwood House, and Elizabeth Jeffreys. We have searched for a birth and baptism but can not find any. The only link I have is that John's estate was handled by the same solicitors (Part, Woodcock and Co, The Arcade, King Street, Wigan) as his brothers,William Gerard Walmesley of Westwood House.Can anyone shed some light on how I can prove John is part of this family.Also would there be any records from the lawfirm.
Thanks Shelgh