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Posted by JBrown86 on 20th February 2017  

Hi Linda
I'm still working on the Pierpoint/Unsworth families that you were helping me with pre-Christmas; will send you what I have soon (trying to pinpoint when my James Pierpoint was born and who his parents were - I think I'm making some progress tho!).

In the meantime - I was asked by family yesterday about my ancestor William Brown. You may remember helping me out with his wife Sarah Jane Isherwood in late 2015 (thanks again). This is them together in 1891:

http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1891&indiv=try&h=22725137

1901:
http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&indiv=try&h=22341795

and 1911:
http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=5431517

They lived in Wigan/Leigh in these years. Wm is hard to track further back as they never married, and his name is so common. All I have is born c1852 and Scotland (nothing more specific - a typo reading "Rud" is shown in 1911). I guess my question is if you know if England/Lancashire kept registers of the details of disabled/crippled people - as the images of both 1901 and 1911 censuses show that he was one or the other (or both). He worked as a (Highway) Watchman. I'm at the point where I think a register of cripples might be my only source for more info on this man.
Interestingly, he is recorded as born Manchester in the 1891 Census; but I don't think this is true. The image is awfully hard to read, and could say anything.
Hope all is well. Thanks in advance for anything you might know :)

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th February 2017  

Alfred Rogers and Ellen Speakman!!

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th February 2017  

For Suzanne Dwyer:

Hi Suzanne,
I don't know whether you ever look at this message board now, but I just want to let you know that I have finally had a reply from the person I mentioned on ancestry (after 8 months!) with permission to send you the photos of your relatives Alfred Speakmann and Ellen.

Linda

Posted by Christine McDermott on 31st January 2017  chris@dominoe.org 

Dear Sharon,
I am programme secretaty for warrington history society, would you kindly let me have Tony Fosters email and telephone number.
\many thanks.

Posted by silvi wright on 20th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
What a search, you have given me alot of thinking to do. I will continue to find a link by relative or neighbour as to why she ended up in Bolton.
Thanks for your help.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th January 2017  

To finish off, Silvi, Thomas died in 1906, leaving Florence a widow. I'd say that Thomas and Martha's Annie is more likely to be the Annie with Thomas and Martha Hanley. It looks like the other Annie was with her mother Kate in 1901 and with her husband Thomas Wilde in 1911. But I'm still puzzled as to why Annie went from Worsley to Bolton and suspect some kind of link. Distant relatives, common acquaintances...

So for the moment, that's it, I think.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th January 2017  

Silvi,

Forget the bit about Thomas Jackson. He's turnd up again in 1901, still living in Boothstown with somone called Florence. Sons THOMAS and HERBERT are with him as well as four young children under five, obviously with Florence. He had married almost immediately after Martha's death:

Marriage: 4 Oct 1894 St George, Tyldesley, Lancashire, England
Thomas Jackson - (X), 42, Game Keeper, Widower, Boothstown
Florence Yates - (X), 29, Widow, Mosley Common
Groom's Father: William Jackson, Farmer
Bride's Father: David Booth, Underlooker
Witness: William Wilkinson; Sarah Daniels, (X)
Married by License by: Richard Willett Curate
Register: Marriages 1893 - 1901, Page 37, Entry 73
Source: LDS Film 1885667

The two daughters Martha Ann and Annie are NOT with the family. I could imagine that Martha Ann soon went into service, but Annie would have been too young. Is she with the Hanleys? Why from Worsley to Bolton? Do any of the names in the entry above say anything to you - Yates, Booth??

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th January 2017  

P.S. New Bury is not so far from Worsley.

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th January 2017  

Silvi,

Interesting is the death of a Thomas Jackson, b. ca 1850 and buried on September 15th 1895 in the parish of St James the Apostle, New Bury, Lancashire in the registration district of Bolton. I have no more details.

There were, of course, so many Thomas Jacksons that I wouldn't dare to say this is him, but it's something to keep in mind.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 20th January 2017  

Silvi,

It looks like Martha Jackson died in 1894 aged 40 in the registration district of Barton Upon Irwell. Unfortunately, there are no burial transcriptions in the area after 1892, so I cannot be absolutely sure. But the youngest children Annie and Herbert were born in Worsley and children Elizabeth and Jesse were still there in 1899 and 1901. It looks like Thomas the gamekeeper was left with a one-year old Herbert, a three-year old Annie and a four-year old Thomas. Martha Ann was also only nine. She was a witness, by the way, at brother Jesse's marriage later. Thomas obviously couldn't look after the children himself. They were probably split up, but WHY would Annie, who was probably living in Worsley, be taken to Bolton to the Hanleys? If the children ended up in the workhouse, there were closer ones than Bolton workhouse.

I'm just telling you in what direction my thoughts are going. I am still looking or the "lost" children in 1901.

Regarding Hanley/Handley/Broxton:

Apparently there was a township of Handley in Cheshire (300 people in 1851)and this seems to have been only 1.4 miles from Broxton, where Thomas the gamekeeper was born. As I said, both Thomases were the same age. I don't know about you, but in the 1960s, I think I knew everyone of my age within a distance of 1 1/2 miles!!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 19th January 2017  

Silvi,
As far as I can gather, Thomas Jackson married Martha PARTINGTON at St Edith's Schocklach, West Cheshire between 1871 and 1874. In Lancashire, they had the children:
Elizabeth (1874, Worsley)
Alice (1875, Worsley)
Jesse (1879, Astley)
Martha Ann (1884, Astley)
Clara (1887, Astley)
Thomas (1889, Astley)
Annie (1891, Worsley)
Herbert (1893, Worsley)

The birth registers give the maiden name Partington for the Astley births. Unfortunately, no maiden name is provided for the Worsley births. Baptisms were found for all the children except Jesse, Martha Ann and Herbert at first glance. The family was now found in 1881 and 1891, Martha Partington in the earlier censuses and also Thomas in 1861 with parents William and Martha if he really was born in Broxton, Cheshire as he claims in 1891.
(Why no son William? Or perhaps on died)

What I find interesting about Broxton is that Thomas Hanley apparently claims to have been born in Hanley, Cheshire in the 1891 census. Hanley is in the hundred of Broxton. I wonder whether the two Thomases knew each other. They were the same age and from the same area. Speculation...

At the marriage of Jesse in 1902, Thomas is not noted as deceased.

More tomorrow.

Linda

Posted by sylvia wright on 19th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
You have been busy, I have looked at your research and am still thinking that Annie maybe was given up for the parish to look after where elderly respectable couples were paid to bring them up. Martha and Thomas fit the bill. I will continue to search for connections as the data is taking shape already.
Thanks for your time which has helped enormously.
Silvi

Posted by David Carver on 19th January 2017  davidcarver49@gmail.com 

I would be interested to hear from any 'Carver'connected with my late father - James Carver who was born in Bickershaw on 29 February 1916.

Posted by LEP19950 on 17th January 2017  

Silvi,

I have had a few tips from someone on the other site that Kate Jackson (calling herself Rhodes and living with s.o. called James Rhodes) was boarding with Annie Jackson in Leigh in 1901. An Annie Jackson married a Thomas Wilde in 1910 and is living with her in-laws in the 1911 census, giving her place of birth as Boothstown. Her first two children were called ALFRED and GEORGE (Thomas's father's name was George). It looks like this Annie is not the one with the Hanleys. Do not know what happened to Alfred, but it looks like it's back to Annie, daughter of gamekeeper Thomas and Martha.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th January 2017  

Silvi,
I think I've found Kate in 1911. I tried to follow up John William. It was a bit complicated as his wife was in the birth registers as Bridget Gleeson, in the 1911 census as Bridget, but married as Delia Gleeson, which confused me at first. Anyway, they had four daughters, three of whom died as infants - Catherine (John W's mother), Mary (Bridget's mother), Annie (John W.'s sister) and Elizabeth Ellen (the other sister). The names indicate (as well as the age and place of birth) that it's the correct John William. I've made it a habit always to look at the neighbours as families tended to live close to each other. Who is living right next to John William? A CATHERINE JACKSON, born in Leigh and of exactly the right age!!! She has a boarder called Patrick Grogan (?) and - wait for this - an adopted toddler son called John Corless, aged 3. From the birth registers, it looks like the mother's maiden name was Grogan.

So, Elizabeth Ellen and John William are looking after themselves in 1901 - no Annie. Mother Catherine is living next door to John William in 1911 - no Annie.

I thought Alfred may have died, but Catherine says she is married and has been for over 30 years. She has had eight children, but only three have survived. Did Alfred leave her, forcing her to fend for the three children alone and to give one up? I found a couple of Kate Jacksons working as servants, but not in the vicinity.

I'm leaving Thomas and Martha for the moment to try to get to th bottom of this. We only need Alfred and Annie!! And perhaps Annie is with the Hanleys.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 16th January 2017  

Silvi,

We are currently investigating two Annie Jacksons as candidates for the adopted daughter of the Hanleys. I feel as if I've made a little progress with Annie, the daughter of Alfred and Kate. Her elder sister married Thomas Kelly in 1899, and in 1901 brother John William is with her and her husband in Pennington, West Leigh. No Annie with them, and no parents. So, obviously Annie was separated from her siblings at the time of the 1901 census.

Am making progress finding out about the family of the other candidate, but don't know where that Annie is in 1901 yet. The only link to the Hanleys is that father Thomas was approximately the same age as Thomas Hanley and also born in Cheshire. Not much to go on!

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 15th January 2017  

Silvi,
I meant Thomas and Martha Jackson. They seem to be elusive in all the censuses. Saw Annie's baptism in 1892, sister Clara in 1887 and brother Thomas in 1890, all with father Thomas, a gamekeeper. But haven't found them yet in 1891 or 1901. I thought that if we could find them with Annie in 1901, then we could rule them out. If not, then this Annie is just as likely as the other one, b. to Alfred and Kate.

What is strange is that I found two earlier baptisms in 1874 and 1875:

Baptism: 16 Jan 1874 St Mark, Worsley, Lancs.
Elizabeth Jackson - [Child] of Thomas Jackson & Margaret
Abode: Worsley
Occupation: Gamekeeper
Baptised by: Mulgrave
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1884, Page 116, Entry 923
Source: Manchester Central Library

Margaret? Did Thomas marry twice? Can't find any evidence for this. Perhaps the original says Mar. - who knows?

Twelve months later Alice was born:

Baptism: 5 Dec 1875 St Mark, Worsley, Lancashire, England
Alice Jackson - [Child] of Thomas Jackson & Martha
Abode: Worsley
Occupation: Gamekeeper
Baptised by: Mulgrave
Register: Baptisms 1846 - 1884, Page 131, Entry 1045
Source: Manchester Central Library

Then there were no more children until 1887. It seems to me that they must have been elsewhere during this time. I'm looking for where they might have formed a connection to the Hanleys.

Daughter Elizabeth is also in Boothstown in 1892, when she marries somone called TIPTON (Does this say anything to you?). She's only 18, but has made herself 21, perhaps in order not to need permission.

Marriage: 3 Aug 1892 St Mark, Worsley, Lancs.
John Tipton - 23, Collier, Bachelor, Boothstown
Elizabeth Jackson - 21, Servant, Spinster, Boothstown
Groom's Father: Richard Tipton, Farm Labourer
Bride's Father: Thomas Jackson, Gamekeeper
Witness: Samuel Markland; Alice Ann Smith
Married by Banns by: A.W. McLaren, Curate
Register: Marriages 1885 - 1903, Page 87, Entry 174
Source: Manchester Central Library


AN HOUR LATER:
Through Elizabeth, in 1901 I discovered a Jesse Jackson, b. 1879/80 and in 1911 a Herbert Jackson, b. 1893 and christened in Astley (Thomas and Martha parents). Through Jesse, I found the family in 1891, parents Thomas, a gamekeeper, and mother "MAR" (so abbreviated here). I need to do some more work to see what happened to Thomas and Martha.

Till later,
Linda

Posted by sylvia wright on 15th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
Yes I got Martha and Thomas with Annie Hanley in Bolton .
She has their name. I Know they are the correct people but who is she?
I am looking into Thomas' siblings but not found any connection yet.
Will keep looking.
Silvi

Posted by LEP1950 on 15th January 2017  

Hi Silvi,

I have now seen that baptism in Astley, and yes, you have to consider that as a further possibility. I have followed Alfred and Kate back, but as I said, I can't follow them forward, which made me think they might have disappeared and left Annie behind. So, can we find Thomas, Martha and children in the 1901 census? I can't at first glance. Will look more intensively later.If we can't find them either, then we're no wiser.
Thomas and Martha Hanley don't seem to have had any biological children, and they say so themselves in the 1911 census.

Happy hunting!

Linda

Posted by sylvia wright on 14th January 2017  hughsiwright@gmail.com 

Hi Linda,
just done some looking up and found the baptism record for the three children but not the family on the census,yet! Guess what else I found. Another baptism for an Annie Jackson in Astley with Marth and Thomas as her parents in June 1892. Thomas is a Gamekeeper and they live in Boothtown.
I will follow that one up soon.
Thanks for all your help
Silvi