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Posted by LEP1950 on 24th July 2017  

For geri schembari:

I can help with Robert Radcliffe's father's name. It was WILLIAM:

Marriage: 31 Jan 1859 St Mary the Virgin, Bury, Lancashire, England

Robert Radcliffe - 28, Weaver, Bachelor, Bury
Mary Davis - (X), 20, Spinster, Bury

Groom's Father: William Radcliffe, Sawyer
Bride's Father: Thomas Davis, Labourer

Witness: William Openshaw, (X); Charles Whitehead
Married by Banns by: Thomas Brooke Curate
Register: Marriages 1858 - 1860, Page 95, Entry 189
Source: Original Register

I can also confirm that Mary's mother's name was ANN. William and Mary's daughter Nancy, born 1868 in Blackburn, is staying with her grandmother ANN DAVIES in Bury in the 1871 census. I have found baptisms or all the children born after 1865 (one or two died), but I have to date no baptism for William or Jane Ann. If you do not have the other baptisms, I will send you details.

Below is the only baptism I can find of a Robert Radcliffe to a William in the Wigan area:

Baptism: 14 Dec 1826 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Robert Ratcliffe - 3 Son of William Ratcliffe & Ann
Born: 1 Dec
Abode: Aspull
Occupation: Shopkeeper
Baptised by: J. Bromilow Curate
Register: Baptisms 1825 - 1827, Page 204, Entry 1629
Source: LDS Film 1885677

The age corresponds to Robert's age in 1871, but his age in the censuses changes by more or less than 10, but never by 10, every time!!

I will wait for a reply before I send any other thoughts.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 24th July 2017  

Carol,

To continue with Caroline's ancestry:

Father William Baldwin was christened on May 29th 1814 in Preston Candover, Hampshire. He was the son of JOHN BALDWIN and his wife ANN and had at least the following siblings:

JAMES (ch. 19th July 1807)
HENRY (ch. 29th January 1809)
CHARLES (ch. 8th December 1810)
HARRIET (ch. 12th December 1818)

William's father JOHN BALDWIN was also born in Preston Candover. He was christened on September 24th 1779 and had at least one sibling called DANIEL, who was christened on January 12th, 1776. The names of the parents were DANIEL BALDWIN and OLIVE.

So far, I have not been able to find out anything about Daniel's ancestry, but OLIVE LAMBOLL was born in 1742 in Preston Candover, Hampshire, the daughter of WILLIAM LAMBOLL and ELIZABETH SIMPSON (married 19th DEC. 1733). OLIVE had at least the siblings:
ELIZABETH (1735)
WILLIAM (1737)
JOHN (1739).

The above information is on familysearch with references.

That takes you well back into the 18th century with Caroline's ancestors.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd July 2017  

For John: Houghton/Fairhurst

I haven't been able to find out where John was buried, but it looks like 34-year old Elizabeth Fairhurst died at 31 Pool Street, Poolstock and was buried as a Non-Conformist in Wigan Cemetery, Ince, in grave D199 on March 2nd 1862. The only other person in this grave was a Peter O'Neil, who was buried 40 years later in 1902. Do you think this is "your" Elizabeth?

John Fairhurst and Elizabeth don't seem to have stayed in Hindley. In 1851 they are at Bull Hey Field in the centre of Wigan. I'm fairly sure I have the right couple as a visitor named ANN HOUGHTON is with them. There are three children - John (6), Ellen (4) and Elizabeth (2). By 1861, Elizabeth is widowed and a provisions dealer in Manchester Road, Ince-in-Makerfield. There are now three further children: Ann (10), Joseph (8) and Mary (6).

Interesting is that at the Pool Street address in May 1861 a 4-month old baby called Elizabeth Fairhurst had died.The maiden name of the mother is given as Fairhurst. Baby of the eldest daughter??

Sorry not to be able to help you more.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd July 2017  

Carol,

William Baldwin (Caroline's father) was not born in Preston, as is stated in the 1851 census, but in a little place called PRESTON CANDOVER in HAMPSHIRE. I found this out from the 1861 census where he is in Wrexham with daughter Harriet and wife (or partner?) Catherine. This was 9 years after Emily's death.

William's baptism is on findmypast for the year 1814 in Preston Candover. I haven't got a subscription, but I have asked someone to look it up for me (or rather you).

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 23rd July 2017  

Carol,

I had wondered why William and Emily Baldwin couldn't be found after 1851. It now seems that Emily died in 1852 aged 31. She was buried on June 6th 1852 at St Mary's, Birkenhead, Cheshire.

I have found marriages of some Caroline's siblings (will send them later), but still no baptisms.

Not yet sure what happened to William.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd July 2017  

For Carol: On Caroline's ancestors

I have in the meantime found out that Caroline's father William Baldwin married EMILY TIBBLE in the third quarter of 1840 in Alresford, Hampshire. They are in the 1841 census in Northington, Hampshire. Their eldest daughter Emma was born there in the fourth quarter of 1841. (This corresponds with the 1851 census in which the birthplace of Emily and Emma is given as Hants - the abbreviation for Hampshire and not a place in Lancashire as the enumerator wrongly notes).

Emily herself was christened on 28th January 1821 in Northington, Hampshire, the daughter of JOSEPH TIBBLE and his wife MARY. She had at least one sister called ANN, who was christened on June 16th 1816.
There were probably other siblings, but the mother's name is noted there as Mary Ann and so I am not completely sure. William and Emily Baldwin are living with Joseph and Mary Tibble in the 1841 census.
Joseph and Mary are still alive in 1851, where Mary is noted as Mary A. Tibble, born Twitton, Somerset, and in 1861.

Going back to the 1841 census, Emily's sister Ann is living with her husband Thomas Tee a couple of pages further on from the Tibbles and Baldwins. She, interestingly, has a baby daughter called Caroline. Did Emily name her own daughter Caroline after her niece?

Still no baptisms of the Baldwin children.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 22nd July 2017  

Hi Carol,

I suppose you are referring to these marriages:

Marriage: 18 Sep 1898 St Elizabeth of Hungary, Aspull, Lancashire, England
William Seddon - 22, Collier, Bachelor, 1 Shaw's Fold, Higher Gullet
Elizabeth Jackson - 20, Factory Hand, Spinster, 8 Stanley Road
Groom's Father: John Seddon, (decd.), Collier
Bride's Father: James Jackson, Collier
Witness: Thomas Seddon; Charlotte Jackson
Married by Banns by: C. A. Chessington S. Davids Haigh & Aspull
Register: Marriages 1883 - 1907, Page 150, Entry 299
Source: LDS Film 1885720


Marriage: 12 Nov 1904 St Elizabeth of Hungary, Aspull, Lancashire, England
William Wilcox - 22, Collier, Bachelor, Aspull
Dorothy Seddon - 20, Cotton Factory Weaver, Spinster, Aspull
Groom's Father: George Wilcox, Collier
Bride's Father: John Seddon, (decd.), Collier
Witness: William Ainscough; Harriet Alice Seddon
Married by Banns by: George F. Grundy M.A. Vicar
Register: Marriages 1883 - 1907, Page 223, Entry 445
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives


Marriage: 12 Nov 1904 St Elizabeth of Hungary, Aspull, Lancashire, England
William Ainscough - 23, Collier, Bachelor, Aspull
Harriet Alice Seddon - 24, Cotton Factory Reeler, Spinster, Aspull
Groom's Father: John Johnston, (decd.), Brakesman
Bride's Father: John Seddon, (decd.), Collier
Witness: William Wilcox; Dorothy Seddon
Married by Banns by: George F. Grundy M.A. Vicar
Register: Marriages 1883 - 1907, Page 222, Entry 444
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives

Your grandmother's story is strange. According to Lancashire records and the registers of St Elizabeth's of Hungary, John Seddon was buried on June 20th 1896. His wife Caroline two years later on July 26th 1898. I don't know what your grandmother remembered. (???)

Obviously, it's difficult to find a baptism for Caroline as she was born in France. In fact it's difficult to find baptisms for any of her siblings, but I have found out a bit more about her ancestry. I will send this separately as sometimes the message disappears when things are copied and pasted (as above).

Linda

Posted by john on 22nd July 2017  jhoughton1954@yahoo.co.uk 

HI. i have a past relation elizabeth houghton who married john fairhurst at all saints hindley in 1844. i dont think that they moved away from hindley. my question is which churchyard most likely would they have been buried in at that time john lived till 1859 aged 34 and elizabeth 1862 aged also 34. i would also be interested in the whittle family of hindley and any o/s map or info of houghtons yard in stoney lane (now liverpool road ) many thanks.

Posted by Carol McEwen on 22nd July 2017  carolmcewen@slingshot.co.nz 

Linda
Thank you for that informoation. Starting with 9/7 - ; p1. If these zare Johns parents then it would be likely that my grandmother was named after one of John's sisters 'Dorothy' - which is quite likely as names were carried through generations I tried to do the same but my hubby had a name in his head of Valynda and Dorothy did not go well as initials as a second name, so she became Valynda Carol. P2. You note that Peter a younger brother married in a Catholic Churcg RC Catholics. That made interesting reading as "my grandmother always said that her mother had died before her husband and had been buried in a paupers grave early in the morning - she was a C of E not Catholic - that her father blamed her mothers death on the fact that she was not a Christian" this was made more interesting after my grandmother died and we located her marriage certificate which confirmed their marriage was held oin St Elizabeths in Aspull - a joint wedding in fact, her sister Harriet Alice married William Ainscough the same day at the wedding. Both Willliams then join William Seddon a brother to the two girls and they travelled to New Zealand - all finished up working in the Waikato Mines and are all buried at Ngaruawahia Cemetery in the Waikato.The wives travelled later first Dorothy and Elizabeth (William Sedoons wife) and them Harriet Alice a little later.

I will see if my grandson may be able to get assistance with this one he has connections in England that may be able to seek the information that we need. I will let you know. Once again thanks for all this. from a wild wet windy and extremely cold Northern New Zealand - known as the WINTERLESS NORTH that is the biggest laugh of the century between 60 - 100mm rain three days in a row ugh!!

Carol

Posted by geri schembari on 19th July 2017  mannyngeri@gmail.com 

I am looking for information on the parents and grandparents of William Radcliffe, b. 3 Feb 1860 in Bury, Lancaster, England. He died on 25 May 1943 in Fall River, MA., USA. William is my grandfather. I believe his father's name is Robert b. abt 1829 in Wigan, Lancaster. He may have died in 1889 in Blackburn. I have no idea who Robert's parents were but am interested to learn. Robert married Mary Davis (1841-1899). Her parents are believed to be Thomas Davis and Ann ?. Any help you can give me would be very much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Posted by JBrown86 on 18th July 2017  

No worries Linda; hope all is well!

Yes I don't trust the Ancestry family trees much either.

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 14th July 2017  

Jon,
It's a bit of a bad time for research for me for the next couple of weeks. I'd only gone back to Robert Forshaw and Jane Culshaw myself. We haven't been able to prove so far that "your" Margaret was definitely the daughter of Daniel and Margery Wignall.I know that Daniel had a daughter called Margaret, who seems to have died in 1800, and that his first wife Margaret died in 1808. It might seem strange to us, but a further daughter may have been named in their memory. Marriages were more pragmatic in those days and a second wife was probably not possessed by jealousy. Sometimes children were christened at home immediately after birth if it looked like the baby might not survive, and sometimes these christenings weren't entered in the parish registers. Also not all the church registers have been transcribed so far. So there are many reasons why we haven't been able to "prove" what we might suspect. BUT we may be wrong. I don't like to rely on ancestry trees, and there are so many Forshaws in that area in the 17th and 18th century that it would take a while to sort them out (if possible!). I will take up the thread again in about 10 days' time. Meanwhile I need to finish what I found for Carol.

Linda

Posted by JBrown86 on 10th July 2017  

Hi Linda,
wondering if now's a good time to continue our quest on the Forshaw line but if not all good I can wait :)

We were considering that my ancestor Daniel Forshaw married a Margery Wignall as his second wife, and that my ancestor Margaret Forshaw (turned Marrow turned Myers) came thru the second wife. First wife would have been a Margaret and if we are correct Daniel died in 1822 and was much older than his second wife. This places him likely son of Robert Forshaw and Jane (chr. 1743/4), (Robert and Jane Cushaw m. 1738).

Further back, many of the details I see in Ancestry Family Trees are absent from Lancs OPC, though they (perhaps influencing each other - not that I can see anything problematic yet) seem to favour the generations this way:

Robert Forshaw (chr. 1718)
(m. Jane Culshaw)

Edward Forshaw (chr. 1682)
(m. Mary Whittle)

Robert Forshaw (chr. 1650)
(m. Cicely Baldwin)

Hugh Forshaw (chr. 1630)
(m. Margaret Willbe)

Hugh Forshaw (chr. 1607)
(m. Elizabeth Sutton)

William Forshaw (chr. 1592)
(m. ??)

There's some discrepancies between some of the threes, particularly with regards to which Hughs and Roberts were born and died at what times (in that 1630-1700 bracket of generations). Other trees seem quite remiss as in some of these generations the parents are listed as being born after the children, which doesn't make sense.

EDIT: Robert Forshaw's baptism I now HAVE found on OPC (assuming it's right - I'm still relying on the Trees and verifying). He is listed as Rob. and for that reason doesn't show up in a search for Robert. I found him in a search for Forshaw children of an Edward father. And unticked Exact Name Match (whoops). This found me the Robert and Jane marriage too.

Anyway, I hope this helps and I'm continuing this search myself. I've never reached the 1500s with a certainty that I have the right details so if these can be verified it would be exciting. Interestingly numerous Trees start listing Rufford as Cheshire tho in my research I can't find a mention of it historically ever being in this county. Tho obviously not all the above is found in Lancs OPC once we get far back enough.

Hope all is well.

Thanks

Jon

Posted by LEP1950 on 9th July 2017  

For Carol:
Catherine is at the same address in 1851, now aged 42(!), married but without Peter. The children William (19), Elizabeth (17), John (15), Alice (13), Mary (10), Peter (9), DOROTHY (7), Thomas (4) and Paul (2). We learn that she was born in Armagh, Ireland. Francis Hamil (sic) was also still at the same address as in 1841 and is more specific. He names Lochgaren, Armagh as his place of birth, supposedly in 1781.
Francis dies in 1856 in Wigan.

The 69-year old widower William Seddon is still further down the street with his unmarried children Paul (35), James (34) and Elizabeth (27). We learn that he was born in Chorley, Lancashire. It might be difficult to find his birth as the family was Catholic, but I think he was the son of PETER SEDDON and DOROTHY MARGISON, who married at St John's RC church in Wigan in 1781. I say this because one godparent at the baptism of William's oldest son Thomas was a certain William Margison, presumably a relative. William himself was not baptised at St John's, Wigan, but his children were, and his eldest daughter's name was Dorothy. Now Dorothy was not an unusual name, but it was nowhere near as common as Ann, Mary, Alice, Jane or Elizabeth that seemed to occur in every family. More about William's family later.

Catherine Hamell had in the meantime married Peter Seddon. The marriage took place in 1847 and the reference in the registers of Wigan&Leigh is ROW/3/153. The two youngest sons Thomas (b. 1847) and Paul (b. 1849) were registered and the mother's maiden name given as Hamell and Hammel.

Questions:
Why were the older children who were born after 1837 not registered, neither as Seddon nor Hamell? I suspect they were baptised at St Patrick's, as they are not in the registers of St John's. Unfortunately St Patrick's records are not online and I no longer live in Wigan to look for you.
It is still strange that after so many children (seven before Thomas and Paul and probably ones who died in infancy) they didn't marry and it makes me wonder whether one of them was still married to someone else, but probably not.

By 1871 only Thomas and Paul are at home. Peter and Catherine supposedly both abt. 62. They are living in Whelley. Catherine died aged 66 at 22 Birkett Bank, Ince in 1875 and Peter at Birkett Bank in 1881 aged 73. They were buried as Catholics in Wigan Cemetery.

I know that John and Caroline were not Catholics, but that does not mean that John is not the son of this family. He disappears after 1861. He may have gone to Birkenhead looking for work. Caroline was perhaps more important than the faith he had been brought up in. Not unusual. So far I have found no likelier family than this one for John Seddon.

Linda

More to come.

Posted by LEP1950 on 9th July 2017  

Hi Carol,

I'm glad you have got back to me as I'd done quite a bit of research. I don't know whether it's worth you joining ancestry to look for Peter and Catherine. I'm a member and, as far as I can see, no one seems to have got further back than John and Caroline. You also have to be careful as there are often mistakes, e.g. James was not the son of John and Caroline. A quick look at Lancashire birth records would have clarified this.

So this is what I am so far ASSUMING about the time before John and Caroline were living in Aspull:

1) Since John states in 1871 and 1891 that he was born in Wigan, and we know that it was Caroline and not John who was born in France (noted down incorrectly by the enumerator in 1881), we must presume at the moment that he was born in Wigan.

2) We know that his father's name was PETER from the marriage registration, and in view of the naming conventions at the time and the fact that three of the older children were named after three grandparents, it is highly likely that the fourth grandparent's name was Catherine.

3) The only Peter Seddon and Catherine to be found in the 1841 census in Wigan were the ones I mentioned in a previous mail. They were living in High Street, St George's ward and had five children. The eldest two were named WILLIAM and ELIZABETH, and I thought that these could possibly be the names of John's parents. Both Peter is supposedly 30 years old and Catherine 25, but ages were rounded down. Catherine was not born in this country.

With hindsight and after further research, there are several things to be noted here:

- Peter and Catherine were not married at this point of time
- There is no registration of the children under the name "Seddon" or of what turns out to be Catherine's maiden name HAMELL (also HAMEL/HAMILL)
- Two doors away is a Francis Hamill aged
60 with wife Margaret (aged 55), daughter Margaret (20) and sons James and Francis, both (15). All ages were rounded down. The two sons were born "in this county".

- A few doors further down is a William Seddon, a 55-year old weaver, with John (25), Paul (25), James (20), Elizabeth (15) and William (15). The names JAMES and PAUL become significant in 1861 when they are living with Peter and Catherine and are described as brothers of Peter.

I have to sign off now, but will continue in a couple of hours.

Linda

Posted by Carol McEwen on 9th July 2017  carolmcewen@slingshot.co.nz 

Thank you Linda - I Will give you the information that I have at this time: Starting with - the dates I have seem a little confused as you will see:
Peter Seddon b.1826 Wigan = Catherine b.c1829? Wigan; Son John Seddon b.c1839 Birkenhead, d. 20 June 1896 Shaws Fold Aspull, Int.23 June 1896, St Elizabeths Aspull= Caroline Baldwin b. Paris France d. 23 July 1898 Shaws Eold Aspull, Int 28 July 1898 St Elizabeths Aspull - the marries 8 June 1963 St Mary, Birkenhead Cheshire. Carolines parents William Baldwin b. c1814 Riston Lancashire, Emily ? b.c1821 Lancashire, Hampshire from this point I have the tree - I have managed to get the names of my grandmother Dorothy's brothers and sisters and some dates The confusing thing is that the dates for Peter and Catherine make them too young to be Johns parents. I am about to join Ancestry to search further and see if I can find some documentation about them. I tried recently looking at the mining in the area as Dorothy's male family members and her husband were miners. I founda site some time ago and also found names of miners but can no longer access that site. So once again thank you for responding to my search you have been very helpful. I look forward to further contact. If you know of anyone who needs assistance in the Mew Zealand area I would be only to willing to assist them. Thank Carol

Posted by LEP1950 on 30th June 2017  

Hello Carol,
Have found out a lot more about this Peter and Catherine, who did eventually marry after having several children. I'll wait to see whether you write again.
Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 28th June 2017  

Carol,
I found out that John and Caroline's first child was a daughter called Catherine, born in Birkenhead in 1864. She died in Aspull aged 5 in 1869. The first two daughters of the couple were CATHERINE (another Catherine later) and EMILY. The two sons after JOHN T. were PETER and WILLIAM. We know that John's father's name was Peter from the marriage register, where Caroline's father is listed as William. From the 1851 census, apart from the father's name William, we have the mother's name Emily. I think it more than likely that John Seddon's mother's name was Catherine. I haven't found a marriage of Peter and Catherine, but after a long search I did find a Peter Seddon (30) with a Catherine (25) - ages possibly rounded down in this census - in Wigan with the children William (9), Elizabeth (7), John (6), Alice (4) and Mary (1). Ok, John's age would be slightly out, but this is not so unusual.
I am at the moment presuming that this Peter and Catherine did not marry. There are no baptisms for the children under the name "Seddon", but they could, of course have been Catholic or non-Conformists. I am still thinking about this - and searching, too!!
You probably know this, but the child James with John and Caroline in the 1891 census is their grandson and not their son. Apart from Caroline's age, the maiden name is recorded as "Seddon" and the baptism record gives the mother as Emily Seddon.

Linda

Posted by LEP1950 on 25th June 2017  

Carol,

I'm not sure what you already know about John Seddon and Caroline Baldwin, but they married at St Mary's, Birkenhead on June 8th 1863. Cheshire marriage registers are at the Wirral and the reference for this certificate is BK8/5/281. Familysearch gives John's father's name as PETER and Caroline's as WM. Caroline can be easily found in Birkenhead in 1851 with her parents William and Emily Baldwin and siblings - at that moment in time - Emma (9), Charles (5), Harriet (1) and Mary (5 months). I didn't go into the family any further as I don't know what you already know. Caroline herself was a servant in Birkenhead in the 1861 census. She and her brother Charles were seemingly born in France.
John really is more difficult. There is no obvious baptism for him in Wigan/Haigh/Aspull. Catholic? Non-Conformist? Moved to the area as a child and states Wigan as place of birth in several censuses although this was not the case? Anyway perhaps the father's name PETER may help you. If you want me to look any further, please tell me, but you may know all the above already.

Linda

Posted by Carol McEwen on 24th June 2017  carolmcewen@slingshot.co.nz 

Looking for Pam Seddon - re Ralph, William, Thomas, John, James and Thomas - A John is my gg grandfather born c1839 and am seeking his family. Did this John marry a Caroline Baldwin