I'm Mr, Angry Again............

Just this minute heard on the BBC news that 'people'!!! who commit crimes to feed their drug habit are to be given a lesser sentence.
I haven't got time to type in the characters that denote expletives, as I have an appointment in 4 hours.

Hello Wiganyankeeron

There is method to this (seeming) madness.

www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk

22 February 2008 - Prisons bust

Prisons face a new crisis...After a series of weeks in which the prison population has repeatedly hit record figures, the number of people in prison is now 82,068. This is significantly above the level that the Prison Service considers to be safe.

Prison Reform Trust's seven point plan to end needless overcrowding:
Further details are given on the site.

1. Treat Mental Illness - Stop using prisons as asylums.

2. Tackle Addictions

3. Avoid Prison for Vulnerable Women - Stop sending women to prison for petty offences.

4. Deport Many Foreign National Prisoners

5. End Child Imprisonment - Prison is acting as a college of crime.

6. Use Effective Community Alternatives

7. Provide Strong Political Leadership

2. Tackle Addictions

Locking up drug addicts and hazardous drinkers almost never breaks the grips of a serious addiction and almost always submerges people further in the world of criminality. Britain is scandalously short of community resources to get people off drugs and drink and the public is paying the price for years of this head in the sand approach. Most acquisitive crime is fuelled by drugs. Most violent crime and public disorder offences are driven by alcohol. Residential drug treatment places at £35,000 a year will save millions compared to over £40,000 a year for a revolving door prison place.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

So, locking addicts up is not the answer.

What makes me angry is "Britain is scandalously short of community resources to get people off drugs and drink".

thats no suprise if your a druggie youll get away with it if ur a alcholic youll get away with it if your a law abiding citizen YOU WONT

Why does locking up druggies never break their addiction ?

That's because of the crappy way the prison service / home office deal with drug addicts.

Drugs are easily slipped into prisons, either by throwing packages over the prison fence, and the package is collected by an inmate. Prison visits whilst being monitored, are an easy time to pass drugs from a visitor to inmate (kissing, hidden in a babys nappy).

There are solutions, but the damned Human Rights gets in the way.
Prison visits should be closed visits - a glass screen between visitor and inmate.This makes passing drugs impossible.
Putting druggies on "cold turkey" to get them off the drug is a the way (methadone is also addictive, so once weaned off heroin with methodone, many become addicted to methodone ). This practice of trying to get inmates off drugs is not allowed after several inmates successfully sued the Home Office in 2006, as it amounted to a breach of their human rights and amounted to assault
drugs story

Prison is not the tough place we think it is. That's why so many enjoy going back there.

The law abiding working classes get screwed to the floor by the British Parliaments.

right boys and girls either get ratarsed or off your head on drugs an we ll all go shoplifting an get away with it. anybody got any orders

These addicts are unfortunately slightly unbalanced and people should have some sympathy, all they need is a bit of lead placing in one of their ears to re-balance them....preferably with a 12 BORE SHOTGUN.No-one makes them drink,snort or whatever, they do it on their own,and as it has been said many times before the people who abide by the law keep getting kicked in the nuts.Stop wiping their backsides and give them some proper grief.The (sub)human rights act has a lot to answer for.

Prison Reform trust: Why prison reform?

"The state of our prisons is a fair measure of the state of our society. The Prison Reform Trust works to ensure they are just, humane and effective.

Prisons are the most shaming of all our public institutions. The United Kingdom has the highest imprisonment rate in Western Europe at 145 per 100,000 of the population - in conditions which are frequently an affront to civilized values, and at great cost to the taxpayer. Yet the vast majority of our prisoners do not present a serious threat to life or limb. Their crimes are such that they can be more humanely, economically and effectively dealt with in the community.

At first sight, our enthusiasm for imprisonment is suprising. Prison has a poor track record. It is hard to show any relationship between a society's rate of incarceration and its rate of crime. Prison keeps some offenders off the streets, but it seems neither to deter nor reform. Judged simply on its effectiveness, prison has been repeatedly condemned as a blunt instrument."

I don't know if anyone saw Jeffery Archer on The One Show last week, but he told a heartbreaking tale about a fellow prison inmate. The 23-year-old man told Jeffery he would happily trade places with him upon their release. Jeffery was 61-years-old and asked the man why he'd willingly trade most of his life away.
The 23-year-old said Jeffery would be leaving prison to go to a loving family, home and money and he'd had an interesting life.
He, on the other hand, would be released to have no supportive family or friends waiting to greet him, no home, and he'd be back on drugs...
Jeffery heard two years later that the man was found dead under a hedge with a needle stuck in his arm.

Bassman: No-one makes them drink,snort or whatever, they do it on their own.

These are addictions, powerful addictions that take strangleholds on people.

It is human - not subhuman nature to have weaknesses such as addictions. Drugs are still on our streets and vunerable people are enticed to try them, some of these go on to become addicted.

I agree the 'Human Rights Act' is sometimes mis-used to give rise to ludicrous, appalling outcomes which give it a bad name.
However, I want to live in a just and humane society where people with addictions are treated in the most appropriate way so in the long run we all live in a safer place.

Sorry jo anne you sound like one of the do gooders who see an excuse for these people I am not fortunate not to be on drugs I didnt start so Iam not addicted these people had a choice they made it and they must bear the resposibility or that choice

I know it makes you angry that there aren't enough resources to help addicts Jo anne but what you also have to accept is that unless these people want to get rid of the addiction for themselves they never will!

Jo Anne,

I read a lot of your posts and I think you tend to look at things through rose tinted glasses. I presume that you accept that there are some bad people in society. I personally don't know any addicts but I am sure that at sometime or other someone has attempted to wean them off their habit. What do you do when they have had treatment to cure their addictions but have still gone back to their old ways. I am sure that a lot of the horror stories we read about Senior citizens being broken into are carried out by these people trying to feed their addiction. If prisons are a shaming Institution why do so many ex prisoners re-offend? I know it doesn't go down well with certain people but I would make the Prison regimes so hard that they wouldn't want to re-offend. I would bring back chain gangs and put prisoners to work breaking rocks or anything similar.

A do-gooder and proud

I agree, Lisa - once someone is addicted to drugs, unless they want to kick their habit, and you're working with their willpower, then you're fighting a losing battle.

I should have put my argument in context - have decent rehabilitation, but also put great importance on ridding our streets of drugs so there's less chance of people becoming addicted in the first place.
Yes, Thiek C, I do think some drug addicts do have an 'excuse' for their plight -
Lock up the traffickers, drug dealers who prey on people- I know of a few in our area who openly deal drugs...

I agree, Broady, even if rehabilitation brings about positive outcomes and someone is 'clean' it is still the easiest route to lapse back to their old ways. Drugs are powerful and many people have little support and few opportunities to build a new productive life so they can leave their old ways firmly behind them.

Prisons are massively overcrowded and understaffed (my inlaw works in a Liverpool prison).
People accept many offenders are given a specified length of sentence to serve then are released back into society, their time served.
Yes, give inmates constructive tasks to fill their days, educate them if possible to increase their self-esteem - many are illiterate - totally eradicate drugs from prisons and prisoner hierarchies of power, have a safe environment for prisoners and staff.
Have basic living conditions, but fit for humans and not degrading - being able to go to the toilet with privacy (as I understand it this is not always possible in our overcrowded prisons).
Stop prisons being schools of crime.

Most inmates will be released back into society and if their time inside leads to:
further lowered self esteem,
reduced self-reliance,
heightened dependancy on society, etc
how can we expect ex-convicts to find a positive role in society?

Perhaps my specs are a bit rose-tinted .
I have always felt loved and supported, and I am well aware my very sheltered background makes me look for the best in everyone.

I am realistic and know there are 'bad' people - it is the way of the world - but sometimes they are the product of society. For example, many school leavers are illiterate - our education system (in addition to their families) has failed them - that is a crime in my eyes. Not that illiterate people are bad! I mean they have been failed and it's much more difficult for some to be fully included and lead valued lives in society.

There aren't many decent work opportunities nowadays - when my Dad left the local comp with few qualifications he had a choice of good apprenticeships and was able to work hard, as was the norm, so earning enough to buy a home and raise a family. How much harder is that to achieve for our school leavers?

I perceive many things going wrong through society - I should stop writing about them and try to do-some-good.

My worry is kids being raised by addicts, they aren't being set a good example at an early age and can go on to live that kind of life themselves. Both my parents worked hard, yet my mum was there before I went to school and when I came home.We had a good example set.
They are jailing addicts for theiving yet the dealers are making a mint out of peoples misery. They should deal with dealers first, take away the supply and addicts will be forced to seek help.
Lighter sentencing won't work, its an addiction they are dealing with. I'd prefer a longer sentence, somewhere away from drugs, secure and rehab all included.We have a generation thats being ruined at the moment cos of light sentencing, and that generation is raising the next.What hope is there?
You have to give an addict something that will give them a greater high than the one they get chemically.Getting decent help, getting them clean and getting them educated would be a start. Letting them off the hook is a joke.

A cruel joke on everyone, the addicts included, Emp.

Brilliantly put, Emp - particularly "You have to give an addict something that will give them a greater high than the one they get chemically."

As you say, it is a great worry where kids are being raised by addicts etc. sometimes - many 'bad' people are the product of our society's ills and not enough being done to make them better.

Thats what our lads are in Afgan for as simple aswe must get the RESPECT back into our society sooner rather than later or our kids and grandkids are in for a tough time with this scum walking our streetsi would put all the drugies and murderers on that american prison ship we bought off the yanks its based in portland in dorset let thim rock with the waves

While you spend all this money on these people the people who need it more are not being helped the money spent on these people should be used on the nhs and to give a better standard of living to the pensioners who need it some who worked all the lives and are now feeling the pinch
These addicts have put hardly anything in the pot but take a lot out

Fair points, Thiek.
Unfortunately, the pot has been so mis-spent, and so many systems in society are floundering, that there isn't the money or infrastructures in place to treat most members of society fairly and with respect.

Education, pensions, NHS, prisons, immigration .....

There are mammoth challenges for the UK - things are in a real mess.

I agree but what I cant understand is the tories had longer than labour why didnt they do agood job then, to vote labour out would be jumping out out of the pan into the proverbial, how come they can aways do better when in opposition?

Gone for a pint

I don't know if any of the political parties are up to the job, Thiek.

The party in power can blunder its way through and try to make it seem everything is going great guns by adjusting the figures - for example - inflation.

It's the easier position to be in opposition - you can promise the earth, because you don't have to deliver and deride the party in power at every opportunity.

Our democratic system is so flawed and so
unconstructive.

jo anne The point I was making is that initially these addicts do not have a gun put to their heads and told to drink ,snort or whatever, they do it of their own free will.What puzzles me is why?. There is more than enough information and education as to why they shouldn't do it but they go ahead then when they do get addicted they expect to be treated differently, and as soon as they say they are addicted all the same excuses come out.The reason I put sub before the human rights act is because some of the crimes committed by these addicts of whatever can only be described as sub human acts, and take away the human rights of their victims but they are granted the same rights, and as you have said yourself it is grossly mis-used.Whilst I may not agree with you on many points I have to applaud you for taking your stand and having your opinions on the subject but could I ask you to think about the victims of the crimes these people commit.When I was working I used to dread Mondays especially, because of the amount of break ins over the week ends,then had to visit oap's who had been burgled and threatened in their beds.Then at the other end of the spectrum a young couple or single parent having what bit of possessions they had taken away.The worst part about the addict situation is the hurt and suffering of their families.How many chances do you give an addict when they have reneged on promises to clean up etc. I firmly beleive there is not enough deterrent to stop people bcoming addicts in the first place.As my good old dad used to say you only put your hand in the fire once,you don't do it again.

Because Bassman they all think that it won't happen to them, they can take it, they won't become an addict cause they are too strong and the slippery slope just creeps up.

I agree, Lisa.

Bassman - "drink ,snort or whatever, they do it of their own free will.What puzzles me is 'why?'. There is more than enough information and education.."

I think there are a number of reasons, including curiosity, rebellion, peer pressure, recklessness of youth, bravado, + an individual's predisposition to addictions ...

(People still start smoking even though there are dire stark warnings on the packets: 'cigarettes kill'.)

In the early days, while 'experimenting', I think a potential addict will not believe any of the deterents, no matter how tough, will apply to them. They might dabble with drugs for some time feeling in control of their habit (for recreation etc) and see it as harmless then suddenly be in the grips of a powerful addiction as Lisa described. By this stage, all threats of deterents will have no effect as the drugs have become omnipotent. As you say, the impact on an addict's family is devastating.

I take your point that a person's addiction to drugs can drive them to commit acts that are 'subhuman'.

I do think and care about the victims of heinous crimes.
No matter what 'punishment' the perpetrator is given, it cannot undo the harm done.

It is of utmost importance that the offender is removed from society, so that they can't re-offend.
Also that they are given the optimum treatment which breaks their drug addiction (which was the root cause of their crime) and a better chance of leaving an institution without going straight back to their old ways.
Given how powerful drug addiction is, I realistically believe a recovering/ex-addict has to make an extra-human effort, with support and positive lifestyle alternatives to maintain a 'clean' life.

We have to address our 'alcohol' and drugs cultures, recognise serious addictions as illnesses, and find the best ways to eradicate hard drugs from our society. Unfortunately, we are a long way off that.

The human rights act is grossly mis-used and I think the legal professionals who facilitate this are as much to blame as the the people they represent.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

From what I have read on the Prison Reform Trust's website, I support much of their aims. I have to admit, I do not know enough about the prison system myself to make up my own mind as to the best ways for progress, but the research and views they present seem plausible and not merely the approach of 'do-gooders'.
I think, ideally, to put their aims into practice would 'do good' for everyone, not just the people who commit crimes.

Jo anne We could go on forever, both of us with valid points.I too am happy to agree to disagree.This is what this site is all about.