Following a shrieking debate on another thread ( its spredding??)under the politics tab, one user asked what has religion got to do with politics so maybe its better to carry it forward to here. I will start with a question I asked of another member but got no clear answer from Veg.

Karin, could you please give me an outline on the Christian view of tolerance to other religions?

All of the Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have a mission to convert the world to their faith, normally through violence.

Therein lies the problem as all three have, and still do ,commit atrocities to achieve their goal.

Personally a like the way that Quakers conduct themselves..a quiet, philanthropic way or the Buddist or Wicca religion that promote peace and introspection.

Well said, Bennie

I think it reasonable to add a few quotes from the previous thread.

Veg: I don't cherry pick anything.
Veg: I think parts of the bible are nonsense.

Lapis:Bible,Quran,etc, just rule books to terrify the minions in to behaving themselves and parting with their wages.

Spiderwoman: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
I don't believe Jesus said that at all.

Strange to find me almost agreeing with my old adversary dear ned but I don`t know if Jesus really existed in the first place! On the other hand I can`t prove he didn`t either! So rather than ask Karin does she BELIEVE in god then ask the question can she or any other `believer` prove that there IS a god? and if her answer contains the words believe,or faith then they are only feeding manna to the atheists of this world who believe there is no god.
I personally would not commit myself either way until proof is found,if ever!!

Nice to hear that you almost agree with me Ray. I didnt ask if Karin believes in God. I asked about Christian tolerance of other religions.

Like I wrote on the other thread the come back from those who "believe" will be "Well you cannot prove that there isn't a god".

Always found that a very weak argument.
To prove a negative ???

Balance of probabilities.

Would such a kind, loving God, as those who preach Christianity say there is, allow for such suffering and pain as is apparent in many people from many walks of life?

Just ask Job.

The only way a person can ever know whether-or-not God is REAL (or exists) is by ‘allowing’ Him into ‘their’ life … If you haven’t done this - you can never know the answer to your ‘own’ question. It seems to me that no-one on this thread has made any investigation whatsoever as to the reality of God and “True Christianity” … and that’s easily seen through the various comments in this thread. Thank you and God Bless. johnboy

Sorry,but even the most devout Christian cannot KNOW God exists,knowledge requires tangilble evidence of which there is none,the Bible is just a book written by man and holds no evidence whatsoever.
I can't prove God doesn't exist,in the same way I can't prove the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist,but until real evidence is presented the default standpoint must be that neither do.
Faith is not proof.
As an atheist I am open to being proved wrong on the being shown evidence to disprove my beliefs,most thiests unfortunately are not.

EDIT. Please don't reply with Pascal's wager,I've heard that turkey a hundred times.
Have a nice day.

there aint no "GOD", but there is a "GOD FORCE"

johnboy i take it you belive in god? well go and stand on the train track at spencer road and if there is a god he will lift you up out of harms way before impact!LOAD OF BULLOCKS

Dear Ned

I can only respond with my outline of what you call ‘tolerance to other religions’ I am not a spokesperson for Christian views. My view is that if an individual has a religion that is different to mine then that is OK with me. I have friends who are Christians, atheist, agnostics and one who is Hindu and it does not impact on our friendship.

If you interested in debating Christianity and live local to Ashton then we are currently running an Alpha on Wednesday night at St Thomas Church Hall. It is an opportunity to explore and debate Christianity in a relaxed environment over a meal. You missed this weeks’s but it will be on again next Wednesday.

For the benefit of others I have copied and pasted my earlier quote from the other thread:

The Bible tells us that people will be persecuted for being a Christian.

John Chapter 15 verse 18 Jesus said “If the world hates you know that it hated me before it hated you.”

1 Peter Chapter 3 verse 17 It is better to suffer for doing good, than for doing evil, if that is God’s will

That is evidenced in real life, and online on WW and Ashton Forum. I am ridiculed for promoting Christian events such as a Puppet Praise Party, Walking Day and Posada.

However the Bible offers advice to us when we are insulted because of our faith.

2 Timothy Chapter 2 verse 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments it just leads to quarrels.

I now anticipate that any response to be that I am cherry picking the Bible.

I cannot ‘prove’ to a non believer that God exists and nobody can ‘prove’ to me that he doesn’t. I can put two buttons on a table and then add two more buttons and count that there are now four buttons on the table. Therefore I can ‘prove’ that 2 + 2 = 4. However that cannot be done with God. I can accept the evidence / information that I see and read as true and others will choose to not accept the evidence / information. So why does there need to be so much arguing about it??

the bible also said a man rose from the deadwalked on waterparted the seahad a mountain brought to himshow me proof of any of that never mind proof of god

theres one proof that is blaringly outstanding, and that is...you can all talk freely about christianity, even suction and darren, but woe betide anyonone talking about islam in the same tones....just wouldnt happen outa fear fer your lives.

Don't cast your pearls before swine karin, when these mockers pass through the gates of hell they'll know for sure that God is for real and the Bible is God's true words.

hahahaha ayrefield your gonna be terribly disappointed, when they cover you with dirt as thats where your staying

how come all you bible thumpers wont take up the challenge of jumping off the tallest building you can find to see if your god will save you?

Thank you for your answer Karin. I think only you read the question!

kelly...because the bible says...dont tempt the lord thy god.even the quoran says this.
iffn i rode a motor byke kelly, i"d be a little cautious regarding my sentiments on god and the power of god, iffn ya git my drift sport.

i'l be OK billy i dont have a god well he's done nowt for me in 52 years

Billy "you can all talk freely about christianity, even suction and darren, but woe betide anyonone talking about islam in the same tones"

Have you ever used this forum before, Billy. You've even started Muslim threads yourself. Your free to talk about islam, so long as i doesn't get offensive, which 99 out of a hundred times it has. Just like KD is mocking and being offensive about christianity on this thread, instead of properly discussing it.

One things for sure Billy, is that there will be no sign of your sidekick Veg to baa in his ear about his conduct. She reserves her bleatings for myself.

Karin, on the other thread, you posted a modern translation of the book of Matthew. Is this modern bible not just an easy way out to make it more appealing, and avoid the sometimes odd, brutal and threatening behavior of God. I've never read the modern bible, but am curious as to how it may cover up the large amounts of stoning, plundering and wiping out of entire towns ordered by God. Is this the bible you read, or was it just used to lighten up my Jesus quotes?

Hello Section 8

The modern translation that I quoted from Matthew was from 'The Message' (MSG). 'The Message' is a modern transalation of the Bible.

As a child I had a King James (KJV) bible and that was translated in 1611. That is a very heavy read and difficult to understand in current modern day language. The Bible has been translated quite a few times in the past 2000 years and I think that the most currently widely used is probably the New International Version (NIV) which I think was translated in the late 1960s early 1970s. I grew up in the 1970s so I have read both translations. I don't know when 'The Message' when translated but I think it is quite recent. I don't own a copy of 'The Message' but if I struggle to comprehend anything in my NIV then I will google 'The Message' chapter and verse.

In answer to the question did I use it to lighten up your Jesus quotes then no. Our language is evolving and how we speak now is modern compared to how they spoke (or written years ago). For example if I go to Preston Record Office and read a document from the 1700's I struggle to understand it and more often than not I need help.

An example of how our language evolves is the word 'wicked'. When I was young that meant something awful. Now if I buy new clothes for my children they will use the expression 'wicked' meaning that they really like them. Therefore the Bible gets translated over time but not to lighten up or cover up but to make it more understandable to the current day modern reader.

Regards Karin

Thanks, Karin.

I thought the translations were rather elaborate, for what seemed to me a clear message. I'm heading away for a few days, but will take my bible, have a read, and find some interesting parts to translate from the "The Message".

Talk soon.

dont fergit ya mat suction

As I said, if God is great, why all the suffering?

"There you go again with the name calling and once again, failing to add anything positive to the thread." Billy

ok section lets dicuss it what are your thoughts on men rising form the dead parting waves walking on water and hhaving mountains brought to them amongst other things?

S8's comment aimed at Billy, KD.

Nothing stopping a man walking on water, if he has extremely large platform shoes, or a shallow bit of water.

Interesting reading Karin. I will look up this "Message" myself.

@S8
It's true what you say. Some on here post ONLY on muslim issues and it is all negative.
And then say we're not allowed to talk about it

jamse i will say all thing negative about all religions as its all bollocks the sooner people realise there is no almighy whoever he may be wethers its god allah buddah odin ect the better the world will be.not one off their followers will put their life in their hands to see if they will saved

In several instances on this thread and others KD has challenged people to commit suicide. Quality guy that. About as classy as the Amanda Todd bully.

barflag why will they die? i thought god would save them!

but then again you know there is no god dont you?

also barflag you will know on many occasions i have asked god to strike ME dead but i'm still here why is that i wonder?

i'ts spredding??'


The thread title is, 'it's spreading.'

I say kill 'em all and let God sort them out!

I have no idea if Jesus existed, or indeed if there is a god. But I am totally convinced any message they may have had for mankind has been lost under the message created by man... Christians do not follow the word of God, but the teaching and edicts of powerful men with their own vested interest. The Gospels where not written by supernatural beings, they are not even written by the people whose names are ascribed to them... written long after the events.

If any part of a 'gospel' did not follow the interest of these powerful men it was edited or removed. Text that dated from the time of Jesus are not included at all, and where in fact supressed! The Bible is not the word of God, but the version that man has decided is the word of God.

Non religious people sure spend a lot of time talking about it.

Hear hear.

im just trying to stop them being disappointed when there on their death bed begging for a little more timeand it will fall on deaf ears

But it's a win win for Christians. If God is there at death, we are proven right, and are happy in the afterlife, if not, no matter.

But thats presuming the after life (if there is one) is God related

No matter, as previously stated.

THE GOD DELUSION by Richard Dawkins....Proof that a clever,well educated self-confessed atheist can confound and deny the arguments of all religions in existance and STILL accept that there MAY be a God simply neither he nor anyone else can so far prove that there isn`t a God.His book has had a profound influence on my thinking and has almost ,but not quite turned ME into an atheist.Well worth reading but a word of warning. If you are a `believer` be prepared for a possible change of mind.....

all it takes for believers is a leap of faith say from a very high cliff if there is a god they will be saved if not it wont matter, trouble is i bet no believer will take that leap!so i ask why not?

Tempt fate...you go for it.

I wonder how many 'non believers' would ask God for help if their children were critical?

i know i wont survive as do youmac if my child were critical and had no hope could you look me in the eye and honestly say god would cure her?

Possibly the last guy to jump in front of a train was testing that very notion. Maybe it was someone who followed your advice. Does that make you feel happy? Powerful? Fulfilled? All three? What does it say about you?

As for me I don't need to test it.

I think a lot of the animosity towards religion comes from when the church had a lot of influence. Any time people have power and authority there is a chance someone will misuse it. No human is perfect and some very imperfect ones sought church office to achieve that power. Now those types go into politics and we all know how well that worked out.

barflag you need look no further than the state of the world to know nobodys looking out for anybody

Mitt Romney does.

Mac siad:
"But it's a win win for Christians. If God is there at death, we are proven right, and are happy in the afterlife, if not, no matter."

That's just Pascal's wager that Mac, That's not faith.
You can't live thinking like that.

Who says you can't? Obviously some people live with it, even if only in the back of their mind. I figure when I die the worst that can happen to me is the best a nonbeliever could hope for.

That's not faith or christianity... it's just a schoolboy attitude towards religion. Do you think God won't know the game you're playing?

Jamse. Do you KNOW what God knows? are are you just guessing? Faith ,Hope and belief are not facts.

No Ray. I have read the book you mention above and hold a very similar position to yourself, it seems.

I was looking at it from the position of the believer. The Pascal's Wager just makes a mockery out of the whole thing.
Their "God" if he is all knowing would know the game they are playing and just trash them all with the likes of us.

I was brought up a strict Catholic but I don't believe in any religion now but I know without one shadow of a doubt that the human body has been designed.

The human body has evolved. Everything evolves over time. If it doesn't, it dies out.

MM said: "... without one shadow of a doubt..."

Of course you can back that up with evidence Marie?

Jamse, I can, and I do.

Fair enough Mac. Do what you do that's what we're all about.

Amen to that

I'm a believer and don't care what anyone else thinks or says. When you non believers arrive at the Pearly Gates St. Peter will be on his dinner and I shall be there to great you. Shoulders back, stomach in, and where do you think you lot are going!

Hash settled!

Yes MarieM the human body has been designed but its not perfect without any flaws. Hence the reason why I and millions of others have cancer Therefore if,as your bible says that God created man IN HIS IMAGE then your God must also have flaws.Yes?

The thing is, with everything, things such as cancer etc. could be linked to the environment we are brought up in. Could be genetic. Could just be unlucky.

Id love to know how Marie "knows for a fact" that the human body was designed, when all the evidence gathered thusfar proves that it evolved.

Enlighten us Marie?

Cancer is causes by a flaw in the design of the human body has been there fromthe very beginning which allows the reproductive cell to carry on producing to the point of overload and piling up until a tumour is created which then seeks out and spreads. There is a degree of genetics involved and there is some bad luck involved but its certainly not enviromental in most cases.Given that most of my fellow victims at Christies are old age pensioners like me then its certainly age related .

the human body has been designed! i thought we evolved out of apes?

Not environmental? I will just point you to the mortality rates after the Chernobyl disaster, and the number of cancer cases in the surrounding area.

dear ned... David once again we agree on something. Evolvment is a fact.Design is a guess. I wish that you andI could go back to 2006 and start again by avoiding all our mistakes and antagonisms and simply being open and truthful with each other .Its too late now but our heritage would have been a lot more secure and better done by if we had not allowed Barston to do his damage.

True Ray, evolution is a fact.
Anyone who doesn't accept this should join the flat earth society.

I said not enviromental in MOST cases. Nuclear radiation is like the Sun`s radiation which attacks and destroys the normal reproductive cells from the outside and leaves the cancerous cells that are already in your body to gain control much quicker than they might have done and even then it takes many years to evolve.

I was always open and truthful, I think your red mist clouded your judgement sometimes. You often took my disagreements with your research as a slur on your character and credibility. I will say no more about this only that if you remember the true raison d'etre of the garden, then it has been an outstanding success.

I have read a few books by Dawkins, if you like I will drop my favourite "The Selfish Gene" through your door. I want it back though as it was given to me for my birthday by a very close friend in 2002.

Like Ray and Towny pointed out, if God made man in his own image or designed man, then why would there be so many flaws?

I cant remember where I read it but there is a kind of fly that lands on a caterpillar and paralyzes it with its sting but does not kill it. The fly then lays eggs into the body of the caterpillar and they incubate inside the caterpillar while it is still alive. The eggs then hatch inside the unfortunate host and eat it alive from the inside!!!

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
The Lord God made them all.

My aopolgies, it wasnt a fly it was a female Digger Wasp.

"For Nature, heartless, witless Nature Will neither know nor care.
DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music."

A.E.Housman

kellysdad, it's only folks like yourself that use the idea of us being evolved from apes as an excuse for their behaviour.

where i have i made an excuse

The human genome contains inactivated genes for making such things as gills,and tails,hens have the genes to make teeth.
Why would an a creator place these genes in his/her/it's creations?
Evolution explains the presence of these genes,simple.

then why do wiganers still insist on eating pies when we have moved on from that rudimentary food basic, i had beef rendang for me tea tonight

accordint to the bullsh i mean bible adam and eve were the 1st now i dont know what colour they were but where did the white,black,brown,red and yellow people come from? god must be a funny coloured bloke as we are supposed to be made in HIS image

nick are you a time traveller? tea tonight its only dinner time now i think your telling porkies lad

Maybe he's tartan.
edit.God not nicko

Evolutionary humanist i.e. as miserable as sin.


Christian i,e. happy being at peace with God

nonsense.

i can see the christian but i cant see no god! is he scared of having his picture taken

Nonsense it's true I tell you - apes can't spell.

How do you explain the claim that God is both omnipresent and outside of space and time? That's a paradox.

You cannot compare our intelligence with the intelligence of God, the most intelligent person in the world is comparable as a fool to God.

We cannot even begin to comprehend the magnificence of God.

im about to go to bed owd lad ,,on the other side of the world

I hope it's bloody warmer than it is here.

Less than interesting thread, same old same, the for...the against...and somewhere inbetween...as long as all agree to disagree no problem.

And still the atheist harp on.
Not seen a Christian thread weeping about atheists beliefs.
It's like they have something missing in their lives.
Seeking, I call it.

Born........................................................................Die

It's up to the individual how they use the very limited time on the planet between start and finishing points.

Mac: it's quite noticable isn't it. Reminds me of myself up to about 25 years ago.

Posted by: Mac (15877)

And still the atheist harp on.
Not seen a Christian thread weeping about atheists beliefs.
It's like they have something missing in their lives.
Seeking, I call it.

Replied: 27th Oct 2012 at 15:07

Thought that may have been a contradiction in terms...atheists beliefs...but they must beleive in something I suppose even if its in a good pint of beer! Lol

mac why did you not answer my question?

A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion. -Arthur C. Clarke, science fiction writer (1917-2008)

Lets get one thing straight

Athiest belief based on observation and experimentation
Christian beliefs based on indoctrination.
No contest really.

Atheism requires a level of faith beyond what I'm capable of.

Atheism requires nothing more than an open mind unlike theism which require the exact opposite.

Wonder why atheists, humanists and evolutionists and pagans are all willing to celebrate Christmas and Easter with holidays and merrymaking when they are always spouting that they do not believe in God or Jesus Christ.

hindleyite if anyone really observed the world and nature then they would see that only creation could have brought about such a myriad and diverse species of animals and insects.

Also if there is no God then why did Israel become a nation again after years of Jewish dispersion in 1948, God foretold in the Bible that this would happen.

The rebirth of Israel

Your question?....Would I tell you God will save your child?
Answer...No I would not. That isn't for me to decide.

Ah,the God of the gaps,ie, if we can't explain something then God did it.Utter nonsense.
What you call Christmas was a pagan wintetrfest hijacked by the vatican to discourage paganism btw.

The idiots guide to atheism

You think anyone (diety) would give a five year old Cancer purposely?....I think that finger can be pointed at (with some proof) the hand of man.
God didn't cause any war, Again, man did in the name of religion (See money).

It makes me laugh when they say stuff like, the Universe is so complex there must be a God, and actually see that as a valid argument when it is no argument at all.

We shall have to agree to disagree. As Jamse states, each to their own.

Oh, and God bless you all.

Seriously though,the whole concept of argument is reasoned evidental discussion on both side,simply saying something is proof of a God,without putting forward any evidence is just nonsense.

Personal choice in all matters of life, and that choice should never be quarrelled over or belittled by those who wish not to choose that same way.

Tell that to the two Christian boarding house owners

rayline
you prove there is no god ,i'm all ears.

prove there's no santa clause

Yes I do know that hindleyite, but why do atheists and other non believers join in with the Christian celebrations as far as I know they don't celebrate Yom Kippur or Ramadan so why Christmas.

Picture this

because the mid winter celebration predates christmas by centuries,few people celerbrate it as a religious festival anymore anyway Christians excepted,it's just seen as a public holiday where families come together.

ayrefield. In 1948 my eldest brother who is now 84 was serving in the British army in Egypt alongside American troops. their job was to hold back the threat of arabs while Israel was created in your so called`single day.He was their for nearly two years preparing the way for the rebirth of the jewish nation. I suggest that if those armies had not been there then there would have been no chance of the rebirth and the nation of Israel today would not have been capable of comitting the atrocities they are now committing against Palestine in the name of their God. These are facts......And I only believe in facts.

ayrefield please compare the picture of the pretty young lady christian holding a book created by man with the picture of me holding my newborn first grandson created by my son with a little help from his wife. Which one of us looks the happiest? me holding my adorable little fact or her holding her little book of myths?

Pagans came before Christians, as did the Christmas festival, which the Christians rebranded as their own.

A brilliant thread

Very interesting comments from those who believe and others who dont

I am a Christian and will spend some time going through your comments before I reply

Regards
JJ

Hope you are well, and the allotment is coming along just fine JJ

Atheism is the new religion that has become a cult, with Richard Dawkins its high priest.
I don't like organised religion and prefer a more introspective communion with spirituality, I'd like to get around to attending a Quaker meeting.

How can atheism be a religion,thats a ridiculous thing to say.
It's like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby,or not smoking is a habit.

dear ned. I would very much like to accept your gracious offer to lend me your book And I promise to look after it and return it to you with thanks.
And now that we have found something in common maybe a one to one meeting with you in the garden in an amiacle manner may just provide some fruitful results. I consider that worth a try as long as nobody else gets involved initially.
So how about it.?

Hmm my original question was about Christian Tolerance of other religions. I asked the question because it seems like a lot of people on here confess to be Christians but enjoy a good muslim-bash on other threads.

They dont seem to be commenting much on this thread. I wonder why not?

Ray, as you well know I am unmoved unless I can see evidence. I have a wealth of evidence to back up what I think to be true. You have never been forthcoming with any evidence of your claims. You have never provided any evidence... and you completely badmouthed me and my family and friends. I have evidence of that.

I will still drop the book off.

rayonline. Those troops did what God ordered them to do then didn't they, to make way for the Jews to return to their promised land. What atrocities do the Israelis do to the people of Palestine - they actually supply them with food, electricity, medical aid - the list goes on, and what do they get in return - Iran backed terrorists firing missiles into Israel from Gaza, Israel gave up Gaza to the Palestinians in brokerage for peace, but they have gone back on the deal, but the world turns a blind eye to the atrocities that the palestinians do to Israel.

Christians are forewarned in the Bible that they would be hated - Matthew 10:22.

You certainly have hatred in your heart by what you write, remember the saying - you shall know a man's heart by what comes out of his mouth.

Every child is a precious gift from God wonderfully made, see Psalm 139:13-16.

Remember the last word will be God's word, and then you will then have the facts, only too late!

ayrefield wote Every child is a precious gift from God wonderfully made, see Psalm 139:13-16.

yet his god lets countless die each year please explain why ayrefield!

And while he was guiding the soldiers " to make way for the Jews to return to their promised land. "
he was guiding the German army to exterminate them, children and all.

You are cherry picking the bible...

Dear Ned typed - 'Hmm my original question was about Christian Tolerance of other religions. I asked the question because it seems like a lot of people on here confess to be Christians but enjoy a good muslim-bash on other threads.

They dont seem to be commenting much on this thread. I wonder why not?'


Are you referring to myself Ned? If so, would you mind pointing out EXACTLY where I have bashed Muslims'.


On your opening post at the top of this thread you typed -

'Following a shrieking debate on another thread ( its spredding??)under the politics tab, one user asked what has religion got to do with politics so maybe its better to carry it forward to here. I will start with a question I asked of another member but got no clear answer from Veg.'

Ned - despite you mentioning my name in your first 2 posts on this thread - I had answered all your questions on the 'It's Spreadinggg' thread on Politics - I suggest you read back through (as I have suggested before) oh and BTW I don't partake in 'Shrieking' as you call it.


On the 26th Ned typed :

'I think it reasonable to add a few quotes from the previous thread.

Veg: I don't cherry pick anything.
Veg: I think parts of the bible are nonsense.'

Yes Ned - I did type those points (although not in the way you illustrate) on the thread on Politics, what is your point exactly??

You can answer that for that yourself kellysdad - you don't need me to tell you, if you can't fathom it out then I suggest that you buy a Bible and read Genesis.

no ayrefield you tell me and as for buying a bible i'd sooner buy the dandy

The war was over then jamse, and God didn't guide the Nazis, they dabbled in the occult and were led by the devil - why do you think that they wanted to destroy all the jews - because they are God's chosen people.

You should thank God that the Nazis were defeated otherwise you, I and countless others wouldn't be writing on this and other forums now

You should do some Bible cherry picking it will do you good.

rayline you will be changing your tune on your deathbed.

Both my grandmothers were devoutly religious. Both suffered in pain before eventually passing away, do I see how great god is?

ya cant die fer the life of ye.
i am a child of the universe...at the point of death i shall move into another sphere of life....how do i know this?ive been talking to my passed over relatives fer the past 35 years, and been given unshakeable evidence regarding where/when/how they died on this earth.
you guys have faith, i have evidence. your acid comments regarding this post will be found extremely amusing, so go ahead, give me a chuckle.

The fear of death and not existing anymore has been pondered on for many a year, it's only natural to grasp at straws when face with becoming extinct.

ayrefield i'm still waiting for you to tell me why god lets countless children die each year?

Baker boy. You don`t know my tune so how can you know I will be changing it? I am NOT afraid of death ....Look at what billy has just said and that counts for me as well and I also have hard evidence to clarify that but I obviously can`t prove it to you nor do I need to!

billy not being funny but thats a load of bollocks you talking to past relativesask one of um to come and visit me then

kellysdad, when billy said `talking` he did not mean talking with his voicebox he meant communicating with his mind.In my case its more like them coming to me rather that me to them.I am not trained as a Medium but I do have a limited ability to tune in now and again. Why would one of billy`s relatives want to visit you? You would have nothing to gain from their messages.

ray i meant as proof that people from the past exist,i dont believe all that cobblers my dad died 19 years ago but as never got in touch and theres millions of others who have died before him and not one has come back to speak of the afterlife not one!

I don't reckon there is any kind of afterlife.
The universe managed very nicely for 14.5 million years before we were born,and it'll manage fine after we're gone.

I agree with Billy and ray... organised religion is not my thing.... to many flaws... although I do think there is something bigger than us....

kellysdad. My father died in 1974.He visited me a few weeks later and again a few days after my mum died two years later .the first time he was agitated because he had died suddenly and left my mum on her own at home.the second time he came back with a happy look on his face and just said `At Last`....I have never seen him since.You may believe me or you can call me a liar.That`s your choice!

ray i would never call you a liar,but till i see things for myself i will always be a nonbeliever no matter what it is

kellysdad, close your eyes and try to imagine a view of how a bird would see a landscape fron a thousand feet up...Something you could never do with just your own feeble body,,,,No.don`t jump off a tall building,,,its not worth it!!! If you succeed in bringing a picture to your mind then where did that picture come from? Your memory? How can you remember something you never saw in real life?

ah but ray imagining something is totally different from seeing the same thing,i've never seen the wind but i know its there

fire away

Pagans came before Christians, as did the Christmas festival, which the Christians rebranded as their own.

Ned - despite you mentioning my name in your first 2 posts on this thread - I had answered all your questions on the 'It's Spreadinggg' thread

Veg, when I said "Explain to me what it means regarding the tolerance of other religions."

You said" The Bible teaches tolerance yes."

What a crap answer.

In my religion, suicide, the taking of one's own life, is regarded as a mortal sin and a person who does this will not go to heaven.
So, to the guy who asked would God save him if he jumped off a building, the answer is No, not according to my religion, anyway.

I don't agree with this, because a person who is so desperately sad and unhappy enough to kill themselves does not deserve not to get to heaven, IMO.

Can you clarify that last bit SW? You seem to contradict yourself or I don't understand the way you have put it.

Do you agree that the person committing suicide should or shouldn't be allowed to go to heaven?

I think a person who commits suicide should be allowed into heaven. Killing oneself is not the same as killing another person, IMO.
However, my religion regards suicide as the taking of a life period and therefore, entry to heaven denied.

I agree SW (although I don't believe in heaven).

It always seemed wrong to me that,as you say, someone "who is so desperately sad and unhappy enough to kill themselves" should not be allowed in to heaven.

I wonder how many it has stopped.
Terrible thing suicide

SW I think you have hit on something there. You seem to disagree with something in your own religion. You disagree with what it says in the Bible. You disagree with GOD!!

And yet he created you?

Ray I dont doubt that what you think you saw or heard is true. But I dont believe it was.

What I do believe is that humans are just clever monkeys. We have only just (in evolutionary terms) evolved a consciousness, a sense of who we are, and we question it.We have been given the opportunity to ask" Why are we here ".

I dont think we cope with it well. We find easy answers to make us feel better and comforted.

Davidyou know that we two only accept facts so belief dousn`t come into it.My father never,ever came into my bedroom when he was alive so how can I imagine him coming in when he was dead.....This is turning into a cracking thread ....Just a little test for all of you taking part.When you go to sleep at nightyour bodt relaxes and you go into a sub-concious state. when you next wake up and before you actually open your eyes does a circle of light appear in front of you, sometimes several times? if it does tell me. If it doesnt then I`m off to Specsavers!!!I believe that circle of light is your own personal energy ring going and coming back from re-charging ...Before you laugh at me read the fantastic Dan Brown`s novel `Angels and Demons and he agrees with me that this does really happen...be interesting to know all your answers....

kellysdad. you feel the wind so you know its there. an entirely different sense altogether.

That's right, Dear Ned, I disagree with something in my own religion. I disagree with other things in my religion too.

I wouldn't say that I disagree with God. I believe in a loving and forgiving God.
My religion says that suicide is a serious sin and a person who has committed suicide won't go to heaven etc.
However, that is just my religion's view on the matter. No one actually knows how God really views suicide. I would like to think that He would view a suicidal person as one who is "not in their right mind" and therefore not responsible for the act.

I think a lot of people think like you SW that they believe in a loving and forgiving god but this is not the god of the bible.

Especially the Old Testament.

But each can make up their own mind.

It is interesting. Whenever something terrible has happened I've questioned whether God exists at all. But when I desperately need help with something I pray every day for God to help.

I don't believe in the theory that human beings just "evolved". I do think that something or someone created us, and that is likely to be God.

It is interesting but surely god could have created evolution.
I don't understand why believers limit their god.

I do understand that it is hard for anyone to conceive of anything that could create things but if god could create the universe then evolution is a relatively simple step.

There is an overwhelming mass of evidence to support evolution.

Spider you should try reading Rays book. I am no way trying to convince you otherwise, but it very interesting.

SW I agree totally that someone who commits suicide cannot be " in their right mind" as you say but why would the great God allow such a thing? Please dont tell me it was the Devils work?

And if so why would the Creator create a Devil?

I have still not heard on this thread from many Christians defending their stance on why they hate Muslims.

Blimey i'm glad SW won't be manning wotsits gate to erm thingy.........Also fascinating to know SW can read thingys thoughts!.......wow, just amazing!

Dear Ned, I don't think someone committing suicide has much to do with God or the devil. It's a personal choice by someone who is desperately unhappy.

Ned, surely suicide is a sign of weakness?

Come on TOM , don't play devils advocate with suicide...

Just saying it flies against everything 'god' says, being strong, having faith, etc.

It used to be that, if a person committed suicide, all their belongings would be given to the Crown, and stuff the family. Seeing as the Crown were inherently religious, it must be that god thought it unacceptable.

Fair point.

Even as a child I always thought that the suicide "rule" in christianity was a cruel one.

With what you say above added on no wonder that suicide came to be seen as a "bad" thing.

ya cant die fer the life of ye.
and thats a fact, trust me.
as for entering into a debate, i cant, because my evidence isnt your non evidence.
the oz and new zealand mediums have been tested by non believing sceptics, and all have come away scratching their heads.....cant be explained was their weak findings.
ya cant dee fer the life o ye.

tom suicide a sign of weakness? i'm not man enough to do it! for a person to stand in front of a speeding train shows a hell of a lot of courage

It is a moment of weakness that can never be undone.

look around, it's blindingly obvious that there is a higher intelligence, to all but the ignorant

have you seen god anthony?

evidence of him/her? yes, absolutely

what? definative proof that there is a god

a higher intelligence? yes, absolutely

more intelligent than you or i or mankind itself? if so show me

I will, but first I have to go out.
maybe by the time I get back, and you've thought about it you'll realise it's true

before I go, let me leave you with this.
if voyager found an uninhabited planet, barren for billions of years, and there in the dust was a laptop, or even something a simple as a gold ring, how would you suppose it got there?

Space debris.

well anthony the cynic in me would say the voyager planted it! just like the claim man stepped on the moon

sceptics make this world go round and round. theyve always been with us and always will. cristopher columbus was called an idiot when he told sceptics the world was round? michael angelo was imprisoned for his revelations that ships of steel would float on the oceans? the list is endless, as fer me, i am a happy bunny becaus i have witnessed apparitions in the seance rooms. i am a very priviledged being for this i know, but proving it to you i cant, anyway, what would be the point trying to convince sceptics??

Exactly, Billy, no point, trying to convince sceptics. People believe what they want to believe . I believe what you say about apparitions. I also know that there is something else after death.

And you Billy, are sceptical there is such a thing as an honest solicitor.

billy why do mediums charge £25 a head for their services would they not be better doing the lottery as surely they would know the numbers? one born every minute

billy, I am certain you are right but I think it's something you have to experience before you can understand.

ok, would anyone believe it had somehow formed by accident?
over billions of years all the elements had come together to make a laptop, or even a perfectly formed gold ring?
of course not
but the atheists would have us believe that a cell which is billions of times more complex,
was created in this way, by accident
no way jose
I

I agree, Anthony, no way were we formed by accident. We are way too complex.

That's an old argument anthony and has been disproved many times over.

Just ready the many Richard Dawkins books and it will show how this can happen. The Blind Watchmaker is a good one.

Surely not saying that evolution isn't right.

There was no accident about it.

There are many comments on this thread to read the Richard Dawkins Books.

On 24th October on the other thread 'it's spreading' I highlighted two books by Christian Scientist HUGH ROSS. I would encourage posters to read these books.

Hugh Ross has wrote several books :
*) More than a theory
*) Beyond the Cosmos
*) Creation and Time
*) The fingerprint of God

ok jamse, disprove it

Hello everyone

I Have read through this long and oft repeated Thread

My conclusion is that

Christian members have learned a lot about the thoughts of the non believers ,
and the non believers must have learned from the Christians

it is viewed by christians that they should tell their side and have done so on here

One point I would like to add is I have always been of the understanding that to EVOLVE means to Improve ones self Ive never known anything to evolve Backwards .

So how can Evolusion be true when we are all sick and
dying surely we must have been created if you go to Genesis it will tell you that all humans will die

comment if you wish I believe in god I am a seaman and many time in storms Ive Prayed to survive and Im not embarrassed about it

JJ


Thank you Town for enquiring about my herb project

every thing is on track for next Spring

JJ

Thanks for your point JJ.
You said " So how can Evolusion be true when we are all sick and
dying".
I dont understand, we are not all sick and dying are we?

Also, life evolves to suit its environment, this can be seen as an improvement because it betters chance of survival even though the changes may not seem like progress.

Ned you are right

I should have said Most and not all

In genesis the age 0f humans were in their hundreds and then through time droped to the low age that is at present again this i think is another subject

Regards jj

Jamse said "Surely not saying that evolution isn't right."

With respect, what the devil does this mean?

As a child I would pray every night. I had a very miserable childhood at school, I was bullied all through my secondary school days.

I never once had help.

Why should I when children all over the world were starving or dying. Why would I get help?

Though god is powerful enough to help all of us isn't he? But he chose not to.

Did you ever say "Thank God!" when someone you know was safe when others weren't. How about "Thank you for what we have to eat?"
Is it ok for god to choose to feed us and yet let others starve? Let our loved ones live when others die?

I don't know about you but I don't want to know about a god like that.

I'm more annoyed at the good people in life who pass away young, in tragic circumstances etc. whilst the complete and utter swines seem to live forever.

That's true.

There is no God who decides who lives or dies. If there was I am sure he would be more fair.

Mind you the god of the old testament was pretty nasty!

seek and ye shall find, go get ya own proof...get off ya butts if ya that concerned about who you are and where ya heading, but dont hitch a ride on my back asking for your proof.
ps ya aint going to find it on the blackpool front,they epitomise blackpool, its ya hard earned cash they want, and all your going to get in return is a "TOFFEE APPLE"

The complexity of life,the universe and everything is not an argument for the existence of a God or Gods,it's simply that we don't have the knowledge at present to understand it.
The "God of the gaps" non argument again,"we can't explain it so it must be God" is not evidence,just a cop out.
I have read nothing in on here or any other text that gives any credence to claims of the existence of God(s) and that includes my admitedly limited, reading of Hugh Ross,who give him his due,does rebuke young earth creationlism albeit for old earth creationalism.
All I ask is just one piece of tangable evidence that does not require a leap of faith.

for kelly.
given the haves and have nots in this world, given the separation of mankind due to materialism,why would a progressed society in the next sphere of progresion be interested in materialism???
for you towno,honest solicitors???where the hell am i going to find this specimen???locked away in some monestry.
back to kelly...a developed medium has in most cases gone through a bad time in there lives whilst developing this alledged gift.are you saying they are not worthy of a paltry 25 quid for their time and service?if you had a sitting with the likes of john edwards or his fellow gifted mediums, you would have to cough up a helluva lot more...the oz medium charges 4 to 5 hundred quid. she is in big demand world wide. you would only need one sitting with the likes of her, because you would be shell shocked at the afterlife evidence and more to the point the evidence that "ya cant die fer the life of ya"
in my opinion, sceptics feel more comfortable in dismissing and debunking anything they just cant get their heads round as an x seaman myself,like jj i have seen white faced sceptics praying out loud in a force 9 gale, when all around em is being smashed like match-wood, by mountainous seas. take it or leave it, but dont ask this believer to prove anything to ya, i am a priviledged person to have bore witness to our eventual destiny, or can i say "the promised land"

Funny you should say that re Blackpool Billy, there's a lot of 'lucky' heather sellers out yesterday.

Dear Ned - 'What a crap answer.'

I could say the same about yourself given that you failed to address my other point(s).

Care to elaborate any further?

i thought gods son could heal people? yet could not heal himself

Heal himself from what?

Pes Planus

the Eiffel tower modifications are now complete for the future generation

debunkers and smart mouths.....ya got it coming to yis.oh yeah, hold on tight to your death beds.

Ezekiel 25:17

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

Be sure to give a charity your gold plated caravan, Billy.


Ezekial??, I thought it was Samuel Jackson.

'L'

"heal himself from what?"

i could be wrong but i thought he died

And then he came back.

If Derren Brown did such a thing, there'd be uproar!

Hugh Ross might be a bright bloke but when he starts putting what it says in the bible BEFORE undisputed science then he loses all credibility as a scientist.

Any scientist who refuses to acknowledge the overwhelming evidence of evolution because it says (or they interpret it as saying) that evolution doesn't happen cannot hope to be taken seriously.

I saw his debate with Kent Hovind who takes the whole of the bible as a literal statement from god.

Now the people who think this are dangerous especially when they get to their armagedon and they control the Whitehouse.

and then died again but this time stayed deadi'm sure a mon that rose once could rise again??? so come on all ye bible thumpers tell me why he cant rise again if he did it once???

Is this you believing Christ actually walked on the Earth?

mac what do the letters BC represent?

Oooh goody, a quiz. If you believe in Christ, then it's easier than if you don't.


B.C means nothing if you don't believe though, does it?

no the reason i asked was because i asked google christs bithdate and apparently he was born 4 years before himself

He is God, Son and Holy Spirit, he can come and go as he pleases.


My views on Jesus aren't the same as the traditional Christian version. I am more of the mind he was a Prophet, so the Muslims have it right for me.

thats what i heard from a spirit comunicator some years ago mac.
the spirit lady said that the man jesus is very embarrased at the divinity and holiness attributed to him.
he was a gifted medium at the time, and showed his humaness on several occasions by demonstrating a "temper"
demonstrating fear as he forsaw his impending death caused by the howling mob of "debunkers and non believers in his work"

said it before and will say it again religion is the root of all evil

Businesses should have no shortage of volunteers to work Dec 25 this year I see.

Ezekiel 25:17

And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them

Just words in a book written by men and no proof that's it's anything other than that.

Jules' speech from Ezekiel 25:17:
'The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.'

well mac i keep asking the lord to strike me down and i'm still waiting for the thunderbolt! could you tell me what time its due?

I have highlited the relevant piece in my post, KD, copy and paste it into google for the answer.

what i need to know now is whats in the suitcase?

The Soul of thingy, their boss, wasn't it?

Oh...Maybe not..
Snopes

i guess we'll never know, also mac keep wearing your helmet as you never know

lol

Veg, I cant remember your questions.

If it is something like " why did you call me an idiot ". Then Im not interested. If it is pertinent to the topic then please ask again.

Well, I am interested - you are still at it on the Politics board - see the Shhh thread 30/10/12 'Doing a bit o bashin Veg?' - I wouldn't mind but it was a week since I had posted. Who, when and where did I bash anyone?

It's alright hammering away at the keyboard in the wee small hours when you know you aren't likely to get a response - why not try it when you know I am online.

You need to grow up and quit the name calling!

Bump<<<<---see what I did there? I miss this thread being at the top of the list each morning I look at WW.

Nobody care to share their thoughts if they think that evolution does not take place?

If evolution happened then it would still be happening today - it isn't, animals etc., adapt to their circumstances not evolve to suit them.

It's the same with oil and coal when they run out that is it - gone, they were formed many, many years ago and have not been formed since.

Think you are very mistaken the ayrefield.
These things can take a lot of time but evolution has been seen to place in the lab with organisms with a short life span.

Oil and coal are still being made but we are using it at a far greater rate than it is being made.

As Jamse says. Coal takes many 000's of years to form.

At least 6000 years, Tom.

Millions

Think section was getting at the creationists TOM... o did you know that

evolution has never been proved, that's why it's still a theory.
Charles Darwin characterized his idea as a “rag of an hypothesis with as many flaws and holes as sound parts.” He worried that “I…have devoted my life to a phantasy.”

Nothing can ever be proved 100% THAT is why it's a theory,but it has been proved way beyond reasonable doubt.
btw,creationism doesn't even qualify as a theory as there is not one piece of scientific evidence to back it up.

An ultimate God, or even a person who can part a sea, turn a couple of loaves and fishes into a meal for thousands, has never been proved.

I feel the Bible may be more metaphor.

That isn't why it is called a theory all anthony.

Look up the word theory and you'll see it has more than one meaning.

Plus it has been refined and scientifically verified many times by many different methods.

Ant is great with certain types of theory

The two most misunderstood words in the theist dictionary

Atheist
Theory

Nothing can ever be proved 100% THAT is why it's a theory,but it has been proved way beyond reasonable doubt.

No it hasn't

ten reasons why Darwin got it wrong


#1 The warm pond theory

The scientific evidence indicates that life did not and could not somehow arise spontaneously from some warm little pond, as Darwin thought. What we find from the evidence around us and from the fossil record is that, as the law of biogenesis states, life can only arise from life.

#2 The supposed simplicity of the cell.

......So it turns out that cells are far more complex and sophisticated than Darwin could have conceived of. How did mere chance produce this, when even human planning and engineering cannot? In fact, no laboratory has come close to replicating even a single human hair!

#3 His ideas about information inside the cell.

Because he believed in the simplicity of the information of the cell, he came up with a theory called "pangenesis," where huge variations simply popped out of cells at random—something that was later proven to be entirely false.
Everything we know about DNA indicates that it programs a species to remain within the limits of its own general type. Genetic changes that do occur are typically small and inconsequential, while large mutations, rather than producing improved and novel designs, are overwhelmingly harmful to the organism's survival.

#4 His expectation of intermediate fossils

During his life, Charles Darwin was puzzled over the fossil record. For it to back his theory, the evidence should show a fine gradation between the different animal species and have millions of intermediate links.

He stated it this way: "The number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory [of evolution] be true, such have lived upon the earth" (The Origin of Species,1958, Mentor edition, p. 289).

Yet faced with the evidence, he admitted: "The distinctiveness of specific forms, and their not being blended together by innumerable transitional links, is a very obvious difficulty... Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection to my theory" (p. 287).

#5 His failure to see the limits of variation of species

Darwin got the idea about natural selection in part from observing artificial selection. For instance, he noted the way pigeon breeders came up with a great variety of pigeons. Yet we should remember, they are still all classified as pigeons!

He thought that from this variety, given enough time, pigeons could eventually evolve into some other type of birds, such as eagles or vultures, and gradually, even to other creatures such as mammalian bats.

No one seriously disputes the notion of "change over time" in biology—heredity sees to that. We vary from our parents and grandparents—but that is not what the theory of evolution is all about. It is really an attempt to explain how microorganisms, insects, fish, birds, tigers, bears and even human beings actually became what they presently are through the passage of time.

Darwinian evolution—what is taught in the schools—is about macroevolution, or changes beyond the limits of the species kind to create another distinct species. It consists of three suppositions: 1) all living things descend from a common ancestor; 2) the principal mechanisms for the changes are natural selection and mutation; and 3) these are unguided, natural processes with no intelligence at work behind them.

But have we seen either in present life forms or in the fossil record that creatures are slowly changing and mutating from one kind to another? Never.

#6 His discounting of the Cambrian Explosion.

Darwin was aware of what is called the "Cambrian explosion"—fossils of a bewildering variety of complex life-forms appearing suddenly, without predecessors, in the same low level of the fossil record. This obviously did not fit his evolutionary model of simple-to-complex life.

Instead of a few related organisms appearing early in the fossil record as he hoped, there was an explosion of life—where the various main body types (called phyla) of living creatures seem to arise around the same time—in fact, 32 of the 33 phyla that we see today. Comparing this development to the progress of man's inventions, it would be as if a toaster, a washing machine, a refrigerator, an air conditioner and a car all of a sudden came on the scene with no mechanical devices preceding them.

Regarding the Cambrian explosion, Time magazine notes: "Creatures with teeth and tentacles and claws and jaws materialized with the suddenness of apparitions. In a burst of creativity like nothing before or since, nature appears to have sketched out the blueprints for virtually the whole of the animal kingdom. This explosion of biological diversity is described by scientists as biology's Big Bang" (Madeline Nash, "When Life Exploded," Dec. 4, 1995, p. 68).

This "Big Bang" of completely different creatures deep in the fossil record posed an enormous problem that Darwin had to admit undermined his theory.

He wrote: "To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I can give no satisfactory answer... The difficulty of assigning any good reason for the absence of vast piles of strata rich in fossils beneath the Cambrian is very great . . . The case at present must remain inexplicable; and may be truly urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained" (The Origin of Species, pp. 309-310).


#7 His theory of homology

In his studies, Darwin noticed that different types of creatures shared some common features, such as the five fingers of a human hand and the five digits of a bat's wing or of a dolphin's fin. He postulated that this similarity in different species, which he called "homology," was evidence for a common ancestry.

Yet this argument is based on an analogy that's quite weak since the fossil record shows no gradual evolution of these limbs from one species to another. There is, however, another and simpler way to explain these common features. Instead of having a common ancestor, these similar features could simply be the result of a common design.

We see this common design in how man builds things. We construct a car, a cart and a vacuum cleaner with four wheels, but this doesn't mean they have a common ancestor —merely a common design. Four wheels happen to give more stability and strength than three wheels and can better distribute the weight on top. We can deduce that a wise designer would have used this type of model of four legs to give stability and strength to many of the creatures that were made, instead of using three legs.

Really, does it make more sense that a designer used these same patterns because they worked so well, or that blind chance in natural selection and mutations just happened to come up with the optimal design after so many trial-and-error attempts? If the latter was the case, where is the evidence of the many failed models that should have ended up in the scrap heap of the fossil record, as Darwin predicted? No such evidence has been found.

Indeed, when creatures that are supposedly far removed from one another on the evolutionary tree share common advanced characteristics, evolutionists maintain that these characteristics evolved separately. But what are the odds of the same complex characteristic evolving by chance multiple times? Again, common design is clearly a far more logical explanation.


#8 His theory of human beings evolving from apes.

The similarity (between man and chimps) is now down to about 93 percent, according to more recent studies—results that curiously have not made many headlines. Stephan Anitei, science editor for Softpedia, writes: "Well, the new study concludes that the total DNA variation between humans and chimpanzees is rather 6-7%. There are obvious similarities between chimpanzees and humans, but also high differences in body structure, brain, intellect, and behavior, etc." ("How Much DNA Do We Share With Chimps?" Softpedia, Nov. 20, 2006, p. 1).

Again, the question has to be asked: Is the similarity between chimpanzees and men due to a common ancestor or to a common Designer? If a common ancestor, why are human beings so drastically different now from this ancestor while chimpanzees have remained much the same? The fact is, we are not seeing any evolution presently going on in either chimpanzees or human beings.

#9 His theory of the tree of life.

The only drawing Darwin had in his book The Origin of Species is that of the supposed "tree of life." It pictures the imaginary transformation of a common ancestor (at the root level) into the different species we see today (at the twig level). Yet the drawing is actually based on slight variations within a species after many generations, and then he adds some suppositions.

Again Darwin went well beyond the evidence. He took limited evidence about adaptations and extrapolated it to the idea that a species or genus (group of interbreeding species) can transform into a completely different one—all based on speculation. He cleverly said, "I see no reason to limit the process of modification, as now explained, to the formulation of genera [plural of genus] alone" (p. 121). He had to say this since no more direct evidence was forthcoming.

As Jonathan Wells notes: "The most fundamental problem of evolution, the origin of species, remains unsolved. Despite centuries of artificial breeding and decades of laboratory experiments, no one has ever observed speciation (the evolution of a species into another species) through variation and selection.