Wigan Album

Has anyone got knowledge of the regiment?.

The two lads to the right have wound stripes, one with a single stripe and the other with two, so these two have been in action and returned home possibly for recuperation. Manchester Regiment.

"I'm sure you are all familiar with the White Feather Campaign and the branding of men who didn't sign up in the First World War as cowards. Well this became such a problem that HM Government began issuing and providing recognition for Servicemen wounded in battle and subsequently discharged. The Silver War Badge, became a staple symbol to say that "I've done my part!" But this was only for those who were discharged and returned home.

What about troops that remained at the front having recovered from their wounds?

In August 1916, coincidentally a month after the massacres on the battlefields of the Somme, the British Army began issuing wound stripes to Allied Soldiers and Officers who had been wounded in combat or campaigns since 4th August 1914.


A Brass wound stripe, as would have been awarded to British troops in the First and Second World Wars

To qualify a serviceman had to have been listed in a casualty list as "Wounded" or "Wounded - Gas" for example. Reports of the same in Hospital Lists were not regarded as authoritative enough for the award of a wound stripe. Accidental, or self-inflicted wounds did not qualify a soldier for a wound stripe either, however one could be awarded a wound stripe for shock if they were marked in the casualty list as "Wounded - Shock, Shell".

The first wound stripes were issued in Brass in 1916, with approval from King George V however there were also cloth versions available for use on Battle Dress uniform. The stripes were stitched perpendicularly on the left forearm sleeve of the service dress jacket or Battle Dress Blouse. Each stripe indicates a separate incident of wounding, subsequent stripes being placed on either side of the original at half inch intervals."

Thankyou for that info Joseph. What if a soldier ended up with Scabies and Gastritis resulting in Peritonitis and being sent home to have his appendix removed? Presumably this would have occurred from being in the trenches in the first place! He was then sent back and was killed months later! He was an 'acting Corporal' at the time in the Border Regt. I don't suppose that would have merited a stripe would it really? I think I may be answering my own question! I have all his service records and some of the abbreviations are difficult to understand.

I doubt it Vb, unless it states differently on his service record or medal card and mentions the 'award' of a wound stripe along with other medals which would include the Silver War Badge or wound badge as it was known, the badge was awarded to all of those military personnel who were discharged as a result of sickness or wounds contracted or received during the war, either at home or overseas. Rather likely he was classed as 'sick' but found fit for duty after recovery and sent back to the front and unfortunately was KIA. His service won't ever be forgotten along with all the other men and women who sacrificed all for their country and our future.

The cap badge looks to be Manchester Regiment. Either the 5th or the 7th Manchesters were encamped near me at Hollingworth Lake, near Rochdale in late 1914. Prior to embarking on that meat mincer of a campaign at Gallipoli in 1915.

The Museum of the Manchester's is situated in the Town Hall in Ashton under Lyne. Once the renovations to the current building are over it may be worth a visit as they have extensive records there and the staff are very helpful.

Mr. Barker, if you read your comment, you will see that it could be construed as meaning that you were born in the 19th century. As this is clearly unlikely, I'll take it that you mean , in 1914, the Manchester Regiment were encamped at Hollingworth lake, near to were you now reside.

These men could be from any one of the 27 Battalions of the Manchester Regiment at the time of the 14-18 war.

Thank you Pete. Didn't they later adopt the fleur-de-lis cap badge?.

Joseph - the 'Wigan Knuts' sign on the hut seems pretty conclusive evidence that these are men from Wigan. I think the Battalions they were enlisted into may be narrowed down to a few from the 27 you say existed during WW1. When I was working on those listed on St Mary's Memorial I discovered that 28, nearly 20%, of the casualties named on it were in the Manchester Regiment. Of those over half (15) were in the 1st/5th Battalion - the Territorial Battalion which was the nearest Wigan got to having a 'Pals Battalion'. Three were in other 5th Battalions, 2 each in the 2nd, 6th, 11th, and 17th Battalions, and i each in 6th, 12th, 20th, and 21st Battalions.
Statistically, I'd say they are more likely to be from the 1st/ 5th than any other Battalion.

I love the way the young soldier sat 2nd from right has his cap set at a jaunty angle! Bet he was told to straighten it many a time by his sergeant.

The 5th, 7th and some of the 8th Battalions of the Manchester Regiment were at Hollingworth lake prior to Gallipoli. I think most of the Wigan lads were in the 5th. Battallion. These were all Territorials and weren't actually supposed to serve overseas, but they all signed a special dispensation. One of my hobbies is metal detecting and I have permission to detect on these fields, and have found a small number of buttons and shoulder flashes on the fields were they were encamped.They did fire some different calibre weapons in the area, including a gatling gun.I have found rounds in the area.There is a small history section on these lads at the very nearby Hollingworth lake visitors centre.

Just noticed the mascot moggie 2nd left front row. I hope she brought them luck.

My maternal grandfather,Private John Dean, served in the 5th Manchester Regt. He was awarded the Military Medal for bravery at the Battle of St. Quentin, part of the Somme campaign. He survived the war but would never talk about it. He was born in Scholes and is buried in St. David's churchyard, Haigh. His medal has been passed down to me.

The Wigan Knuts sign may indicate the the hut belongs to the Wigan contingent of the Manchester's, my grandfather was in the 1/5 Manchester's and went to Gallipoli, my point is that I have photos of my grandfather in similar pose with men from other Battalions of the Manchester's who may be mistook for Wigan men but were actually men from the garrison and training Battalions from all over the areas that recruit for the Manchester Regiment.

Good photo Joseph, some very informative information as well, never knew about the wound stripe. Very brave men if they had to go back and face the slaughter again. My granddad was KIA at the Battle of Loos, 1915, fighting with a Scottish regiment, does anyone know how he would have been enlisted to them, would have thought he would have been in a more 'local' regiment. I do know why the 'Pals' regiments were later discouraged but a Scots regiment seems a long way from home. Regards

Like Methinks Joseph I was wondering the same thing. My Grandfather had two regimental numbers.he was enlisted with the Nortumberland Fusiliers and another number for the Lancashire Fusiliers. Was it perhaps that men were needed for the Lancs.because of the campaign to Gallipoli????I would not have thought men could transfer 'willy-nilly'. He was aged 36yrs.Thank you for all the information.

Methinks, It's not my photo but I agree it is a belter. Men were sent to Regiments were the numbers had to be made up many 'English' men ended up in the Scottish Regiments as a result, also this was a time of conscription and men were sent to Regiments of all kinds that fell in number due to the war. The Scottish Regiments were thought to be some of the best and this may have been cause for men to want to be in the best or even there may be some Scots roots in the family? Men may have had preferred Regiments they wanted to join but I have said most were sent were needed. Hope this helps a bit.

Vb, Soldiers who were transferred from a Regiment then back would have been given a new number on re joining their original Regiment. Also the territorial battalions were renumbered at the beginning of 1917 and the army regulations stated that the soldier would keep the new 6 digit number if he was posted to another battalion in the Regiment but would get a new one if he was transferred out of the Regiment. Just a couple of reasons why some soldiers have two service numbers.

Thanks for that Joseph- it always puzzled me that he had 2 numbers. I thought that was why I could never find his service records! Do you know if anyone did find any Lancashire Fus. Records as I have looke for 3 lots of his relatives and never found them. It seems very peculiar to me that those who fought at Gallipoli - can'find records! Sorry to trouble you-but it is so disappointing!

Should be cannot find records!

I really don't know, Vb, sorry. I do know a lot of records were lost during the blitz WWII so that could be a reason.

http://www.ww1photos.com/LancashireFusiliers.html

Have a look on the above link to see if that may help. Good luck.

Wonder if the kitten was their mascot or in the hut to sort the mice out.

Thanks again Joseph for the information concerning 'choice' of regiments the soldiers joined. My granddad was born in Wales, resided in Wigan and fought and died with a Scottish regiment. Regards everyone

You're most welcome.

My Maternal Grandfather Stephen Dix sadly died whilst serving in Greece during WW1.He was a member of the 13th Battalion Manchester Regt. This was a little known theatre of war.They were fighting the Bulgerians I believe!

13th (Service) Battalion Manchester Reg.

Sept 1914 Formed at Ashton-under-Lyne as part of the Third New Army (K3), then moved to Seaford, East Sussex. Originally part of the Army troops of the 25th Division but soon joined the 66th Brigade of the 22nd Division.
Nov 1914 Moved to Eastbourne then back to Seaford and on to Aldershot on May 1915.
Early Sept 1915 Mobilised for war and landed in France.
Oct/Nov 1915 Embarked for Salonika, Greece in order to support the Serbian forces and against the Bulgaria army.
22.06.1918 Left the 22nd Division and moved to France arriving at Abancourt 11.07.1918, and transferred to the 66th Division and was engaged on the Western Front.
13.08.1918 Absorbed into the 9th Battalion of the same Division.

This Battalion excelled in the BSF (British Salonika Force) during the fighting there for two and a half years I think it was, they led a night attack that was followed by four days of battle in which the 13th again excelled and only withdrew due to the lack of advancement by the other divisions. Many patrols into the enemy's mountain areas saw the loss of many men who never got back due to the Bulgars heavy artillery that 'ommered them without mercy. The Battalion also was riddled with malaria this disease made sure the sick list was far higher than the battle casualties.

Thank you Joseph for the information on my Grandfathers Unit. My Uncle Jack served with the 5th batt Manchester Regt in WW1 He was wounded and repatriated, apart from that I have been unable to gain any info. I believe some records were destroyed during WW2.

Most welcome, Steve. Yes many records were lost during the blitz on the 7/8 September 1940 at the War Office warehouse (the Army Records Centre) where they were stored, it was hit by a German incendiary bomb, the building was in Arnside Street, Walworth,south London, It's still there. Out of 6.5 million documents only 1.25 million were saved, bad news for some folk looking for soldier's army service records now. Bloody Germans!

I sent off to London about 15 yrs ago with a £25 cheque for grandfather's records. I am sure they must have known I had no chance -that's why they ask for the money in advance! This was before records became available on the Internet. Really, I am lucky in what I have got now though. I did not realise there were so few salvaged. You are right Joseph -flaming Germans! I have been informed whether it is correct or not - it was mainly anything beginning with 'L' in the filing system.

"A document held at the National Archives (reference WO32/21769) lists the various collections of documents that were destroyed in the fire. This document has been digitised and can be downloaded (small fee) from the Discovery part of the National Archives' website.

This is an extract from the full list, picking out the key items of WW1 interest:

Great War soldiers' non-effective documents up to 7 August 1920 inclusive
Soldiers' documents of the Machine Gun Corps up to disbandment in 1922
Card index of nurses
Confidential reports on nurses
Complete medical history of the war and a card index to it
Almeric Paget's records (massage services)
Various records of Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service
Medal receipts
Medal rolls of the King's African Rifles
Chaplain's records
Chemical warfare files
Officers' pay lists 1914 to 1921 and later
Card index of staff employed (militarily)
All intelligence records including those of missions to Russia, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Black Sea, Italy, Portugal, Persia and Egypt
Officers' commission cards
Confidential reports on all officers 1870-1880 and 1910-1938
Card index to honours and awards
Roll of Victoria Crosses awarded since commencement
Blueprints and drawings
Stationery (9 tons of it)
Confidential documents dealing with officers' examinations
Munitions inventions files
Volumes of the leading London newspapers going back over 100 years
Secret cipher telegrams
Lists of unclaimed bronze plaques and King's Certificates
Casualty returns
Court martial proceedings
Officers' records of service (all that is left now is a miscellaneous file)
Officers strength returns
Rolls of various munitions factories
Card index of foreign honours and awards
Books containing rolls of officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps
Army Lists from 1775 onwards
Records of horse breeding
Records of Medway coast defences
Packages of photographic plates for the Great War period
Files and card index on the Irish rebellion
Embarkation returns
Nominal rolls of the Black Sea Labour Corps
Records of Russian and Portuguese Labour Corps
Company rolls of the Labour Corps
Nominal rolls of colonial regiments
Officers' and men's casualty cards
Files from General Headquarters in France
Books and card index of Royal Artillery officers
Card index of officer unit and demobilisation
Card index of deceased officers
Card index of officers and men taken prisoner of war
Card index of prison camps in Germany
War diaries of nearly all regiments
'Grey books' of officers and men killed in the war (not sure what this was)
Nominal roll of pre-war and Great War volunteers
United States' and South African Royal Army Medical Corps records
Chinese Labour Corps records
Documents relating to Harrow Schools
Documents relating to Egyptian Expeditionary Force
All Army Forms AB72, AB216, AN358 and AB359
Part II Orders of all branches (this loss was disastrous for researchers as the daily Part II Orders named all men arriving at a unit, being posted, promoted, punished, becoming casualties etc)
Reference books of the various ammunition columns
Reports on German atrocities
Various records of the Royal Air Force
Reference books of the Young Soldier battalions
A complete summary of all documents held at Arnside Street
Copies of King's Regulations 1912-1923
Documents relating to the Camel Corps and the Zion Mule Corps
Reference books of widows' pensions
Card index of military hospitals
Documents and registers of the Royal Hibernian Military School."

It would seem tons of records were lost to the fires, Vb.

Well thank you very much for your trouble in putting all this information on here. I will never need to ask about missing records again Joseph. It is tragic about the loss of all these records but even more tragic when you think of all the lives lost in the Blitz and the War.

My Grandad Henry Platt was 20 yrs old when he enlisted on 10th Aug 1914, Served in the 22nd Manchester Regmt/ not sure which Battalion, in 1915 was transfered to the Loyal North Lancashire Regmt. He was gassed in 1918 and survived the war. He died aged 74 in 1968. Unfortunately his war medals were stolen when he was moving from Wallgate to Marsh Green in 1960.i,m told he would never talk much about the war and the only account he mentioned was of loosing his best friend, they were in single file crossing over a wooden walkway when his friend slipped and drowned in the mud.I,m sure he lost many more but he kept it to himself. I was only 8 when he died, i wish i,d have known him longer.

James, your Grandfather's Battalion would have been the 22nd Battalion of the Manchester Regiment (22nd (Service) (7th City Pals) Battalion) they were raised on the 21st of Nov 1914 by the Mayor and cotton producers of Manchester.They moved to Morecambe in Dec to be billeted then Grantham as part of the 91st Brigade, 30th Division in the April. Info from the Manchester Reg web site.

my Grandmas brother James Thompson was in the
Wigan Pals, the 5th Manchester regiment he went to Gallipoli
James was kill in June 1915 at Gallipoli. He will be remembered while I live. God Bless him.

My uncle Austin fought at Salinka, fortunately for him, he ended up in Malta several times with malaria, and survived the war.

Hi! I would like to find out more about my great uncle if anyone can enlighten me? He was Killed In Action and was with 2nd Manchester Regiment.. He was killed on 24/7/1920 in Mesopotamia.. He was only 18yrs.. Apparently he lied about his age when joining up.. he was actually born 1902.. I would like to find out if any photos and where he would have done his training please.. On the records it states 2nd Mench Regiment? Will this be abbreviation for Manchester it says Manchester Regiment also,, This is my email..
jackiemarywebb@live.co.uk
If anyone could send me any information..

Many Thanks
Jackie

this photo was taken after the war,one of the men is wearing overseas stripes on his arm,these were not issued till after the war,thats probably why they are all grinning their heads off